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USENET News talk.religion.pantheism

Säie: Spirit entities: are they compatible with pantheism?

Paul Harrison <harrison AT popmail PISTE dircon PISTE co PISTE uk> writes: > Pantheism means equating the Universe with God, or considering the > universe as divine. This definition does not say anything about what > the Universe is like or what kinds of beings it contains. So belief > in supernatural entities is, IMHO, compatible with pantheism. Hi Paul, it's nice to see you here in Usenet too. I'd say that relies heavily on the definition of "supernatural", which seems to be very difficult to define well.    I would like to think that in pantheism, the Universe is all "natural", and anything "supernatural" would mean that there is something outside the Universe, i.e., outside the pantheist God.       Why? Let us consider the Christian God, who is transcendent, outside and independent of his creation, the natural Universe. Therefore, the God is supernatural (by almost any definition) in this dualistic totality. Let us then expand the definition of the Universe to include the previously transcendent God, thus saying that supernatural (creator) and natural (creation-universe) exist in the same dualistic totality. If we now try to become pantheist and call this dual Universe the God, we get a God that consists of God plus the creation-universe, which is panentheist view, not pantheist. Thus, such world-view can't be pantheist.       Hmm, I hope this argument was at least a BIT coherent. Hmm...       I'm not sure if the above deduction works with other supernatural entities than God. The universe could, of course, consist of two (or more) "apparent" universes, and there could be life in both. But would the alternate universes be "supernatural"? A matter of definition, I suppose. I'd say not. I'd say that they would be just parallel natural realities. > Having said that, I personally do not believe in any supernatural > entities of any kind, whether gods, faeries, disembodied spirits, > wandering souls of the dead, hobgoblins, demons, gremlins, > leprechauns or what have you. I wouldn't define most of such entities as supernatural, but "subnatural" spiritual beings that exist only in our thoughts, in our material brains. Gods are often defined as parts or principles (natural laws or phenomenae) of the universe. Joseph Zorzin <redoak AT forestmeister PISTE com> wrote: > I pretty much agree, except that I think "spirit" or consciousness > is a fundamentally different item than matter/energy which are > really the same thing according to Einstein's formula of > E=MC2. I don't see any reason why the consciousness could not be an emergent feature of our material brains. It seems, according to the neurological evidence, to be such. Why add an unnecessary entity (the spirit-world)? Just cut such entities off with your razor. Clip clip. ---- -- Marko Grönroos, magi AT iki PISTE fi (http://www.iki.fi/~magi/) -- Evolutionary algorithm researchers do it with the fittest individuals -- ----

"Richard B" <richard PISTE blake AT compaq PISTE comical> writes: > Supernatural is just a label we put on things we don't understand or can't > explain using the laws of physics that are in place today. > > Imagine how "supernatural" everyday objects like TV, watches, telephones, > would have been 500 years ago. > > The supernatural is becoming more *natural* every day, and as such fits very > nicely with Pantheism I'm trying to use a more absolute definition of supernatural, not the relative definition one you're using.       Some definitions of the supernatural, for example some Christian ones, are definitely absolute. They make a clear separation between the natural "created" world, and the supernatural Creator and his heavenly kingdom, which is irreducible and can't be reasoned about (unlike the natural world seems to be). ---- -- Marko Grönroos, magi AT iki PISTE fi (http://www.iki.fi/~magi/) -- Evolutionary algorithm researchers do it with the fittest individuals -- ----

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