Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 08:32:11 -1000 From: fataq@cc.usu.edu Message-Id: <1993Sep13.123211.489@cc.usu.edu> Organization: Utah State University Subject: Flying stacks: limits? to trlby stack flyers: I've got a stack of Trlbys and the stock (150#) link lines. What are the limits for 150# lines? What kind of wind conditions? how many kites in the stack can be supported? I'm flying a stack of 10 (soon to be 12) on 125' lines and note that in 10+ mile winds, this is about a practical limit. What kind of experiences have other stack flyers had? Don Fiesinger Geology Dept. Utah State University FATAQ@cc.usu.edu = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 16:04:30 -1000 From: cerconeg@aspen.uml.edu Message-Id: <1993Sep13.210430.1@woods.ulowell.edu> Organization: University of Lowell Subject: Re: Flying stacks: limits? In article <1993Sep13.123211.489@cc.usu.edu>, fataq@cc.usu.edu writes: > to trlby stack flyers: > I've got a stack of Trlbys and the stock (150#) link lines. What are the > limits for 150# lines? What kind of wind conditions? how many kites in the > stack can be supported? I'm flying a stack of 10 (soon to be 12) on 125' > lines and note that in 10+ mile winds, this is about a practical limit. > What kind of experiences have other stack flyers had? I don't know if you are flying near sand or water or both, but a word of warning. I've been flying a set of 3 trilby's and got them wet at the beach. Once the sand got into them the tape comes apart. Other than that they are fun, I was actually able to land my kite in the ocean, about 150' from shore. Submerge the kite, and then relaunch them from the water. I would ask you a question, have you noticed that when the wind direction changes or you perform a loop, that the stack seems to dance? Is this normal, or is it possible that the wind isn't strong enough? -Thumper (George Cercone) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 03:51:24 -1000 From: fataq@cc.usu.edu Message-Id: <1993Sep14.075124.524@cc.usu.edu> Organization: Utah State University Subject: Re: Flying stacks: limits? In article <1993Sep13.210430.1@woods.ulowell.edu>, cerconeg@woods.ulowell.edu writes: > In article <1993Sep13.123211.489@cc.usu.edu>, fataq@cc.usu.edu writes: >> to trlby stack flyers: >> I've got a stack of Trlbys and the stock (150#) link lines. What are the >> limits for 150# lines? What kind of wind conditions? how many kites in the >> stack can be supported? I'm flying a stack of 10 (soon to be 12) on 125' >> lines and note that in 10+ mile winds, this is about a practical limit. >> What kind of experiences have other stack flyers had?> > > I don't know if you are flying near sand or water or both, but a word of > warning. I've been flying a set of 3 trilby's and got them wet at the beach. > Once the sand got into them the tape comes apart. Other than that they are > fun, I was actually able to land my kite in the ocean, about 150' from shore. > Submerge the kite, and then relaunch them from the water. > I would ask you a question, have you noticed that when the wind direction > changes or you perform a loop, that the stack seems to dance? Is this normal, > or is it possible that the wind isn't strong enough? > > > -Thumper (George Cercone) Yes, sand and just lots of sunshine degrade the tape on Trlbys and it needs to be replaced about every two years. Re the dancing: I switched from a dacron to a kevlar or spectra type line and found the stack to be much more responsive and found I had better control. I also found that the link lines had to be measured and retied periodically. The wind is also a factor because of the dead weight of a stack and the position of the respective units on take-off. Of the assortment of kites I fly, the Trlby stack remains the best crowd attracter. Don = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 19:50:14 -1000 From: danr@crash.cts.com (Dan Rubesh) Message-Id: <1993Sep14.225014.7588@crash> Organization: CTS Network Services (crash, ctsnet), El Cajon, CA Subject: Re: Flying stacks: limits? Don Fiesinger writes: > to trlby stack flyers: > I've got a stack of Trlbys and the stock (150#) link lines. What > are the limits for 150# lines? What kind of wind conditions? how > many kites in the stack can be supported? I'm flying a stack of 10 > (soon to be 12) on 125' lines and note that in 10+ mile winds, this > is about a practical limit. What kind of experiences have other > stack flyers had? -Thumper (George Cercone) responds: > I don't know if you are flying near sand or water or both, but a > word of warning. I've been flying a set of 3 trilby's and got them > wet at the beach. Once the sand got into them the tape comes apart. > Other than that they are fun, I was actually able to land my kite > in the ocean, about 150' from shore. Submerge the kite, and then > relaunch them from the water. I would ask you a question, have you > noticed that when the wind direction changes or you perform a loop, > that the stack seems to dance? Is this normal, or is it possible > that the wind isn't strong enough? First off, a roll of good clear packaging tape is essential to the care and feeding of polyethylene-sail Trlbys.. Not only does the original tape fail in sand, but over time, the adhesive lets go.. There are 2 strengths of link lines available from Trlby, 80# and 150# as I recall.. I fly a stack of 15, and use the stronger lines on the front 6 kites.. I also use a ghost kite ahead of the stack and this has done wonders for the stability of the beast.. I also used the 'heavy duty' bridle (it appears to be of 150# dacron and is longer) and the heavy (yellow rod) frames in the front 2 kites.. When you get a dozen plus Trlbys in train, they will tend to dance or 'snake' in turns, particularly on the lower end of the wind range.. Also you have to be careful with a longer stack to make gentle turns, lest the trailing kite(s) grab the lead kite(s) tail(s) and create some ungodly tail macrame.. I usually fly the Trlby stack in winds upwards of 6-8 mph, on 100-125' of 200# Spectra.. I've flown the stack in winds as high as 12-15, but that seems to be pushing the limits.. There was a guy featured in American Kite a few years back in Oregon or Washington that flew a stack of 76, as I remember.. Ob. Disclaimer: I am a stunt kite dealer and carry some of the above mentioned product(s). As such, my opinions may tend to be somewhat subjective. Good Winds and Tight Lines! - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dan Rubesh Wind Wizard, Purveyor of UUCP: {ucsd, nosc}!crash!danr GO Stunt Kites & Accessories ARPA: crash!danr@nosc.mil FLY A P.O. Box 5747 INET: danr@crash.cts.com KITE! Ventura, CA 93005 (805) 659-5654 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 01:29:08 -1000 From: sasaki@netop3.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <1993Sep15.112908.27941@das.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University Subject: Re: Flying stacks: limits? Nothing to contribute directly to this discussion, since I don't own Trlbys, but I thought I would mention that at the AKA Convention in Seaside, Bruce Gordon is giving a talk on stacks/trains. Bruce will probably talk most about Dynakites, but I'm sure the discussion will expand and will cover all sorts of kites... -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 04:04:17 -1000 From: fataq@cc.usu.edu Message-Id: <1993Sep15.080417.559@cc.usu.edu> Organization: Utah State University Subject: Re: Flying stacks: limits? In article <1993Sep14.225014.7588@crash>, danr@crash.cts.com (Dan Rubesh) writes: > >> Don Fiesinger writes: >> stuff deleted > -Thumper (George Cercone) responds: >> stuff deleted >> I don't know if you are flying near sand or water or both, but a >> word of warning. I've been flying a set of 3 trilby's and got them >> wet at the beach. Once the sand got into them the tape comes apart. >> more stuff deleted Dan's reply: > First off, a roll of good clear packaging tape is essential to the care and > feeding of polyethylene-sail Trlbys.. Not only does the original tape > fail in sand, but over time, the adhesive lets go.. There are 2 strengths > of link lines available from Trlby, 80# and 150# as I recall.. I fly a > stack of 15, and use the stronger lines on the front 6 kites.. I also use a > ghost kite ahead of the stack and this has done wonders for the stability > of the beast.. I also used the 'heavy duty' bridle (it appears to be of > 150# dacron and is longer) and the heavy (yellow rod) frames in the front 2 > kites.. When you get a dozen plus Trlbys in train, they will tend to dance > or 'snake' in turns, particularly on the lower end of the wind range.. Also > you have to be careful with a longer stack to make gentle turns, lest the > trailing kite(s) grab the lead kite(s) tail(s) and create some ungodly tail > macrame.. I usually fly the Trlby stack in winds upwards of 6-8 mph, on > 100-125' of 200# Spectra.. I've flown the stack in winds as high as 12-15, > but that seems to be pushing the limits.. There was a guy featured in > American Kite a few years back in Oregon or Washington that flew a stack of > 76, as I remember.. > stuff deleted Dan: What exactly is a "ghost kite" that you use in your stack? Is that just a standard set of spars or heavy-duty spars without the sail? Yes, the heavy-duty bridle makes a lot of difference. I flew for a while on the standard bridle with a stack of 6 or 8 and the attack angle is too great. And yes, eating tails at low wind speeds is probably the biggest problem with tight turns. I didn't see the article in American Kite, but I was driving through the Cloumbia Gorge returning from the Oregon coast a few summers ago and there was some type of kite festival on the Oregon side. Someone was getting a very large stack of Trlbys into the air and I just about went off the road gawking at it- my wife finally made me pull over so I didn't have an accident. It may have been the same person. (make that Columbia above, can't spell this a.m.) Cheers, Don Fiesinger FATAQ@cc.usu.edu Geology - Utah State University Logan, UT 84322-4505 [Frost three mornings in a row- there goes the zucchini!] = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 10:46:12 -1000 From: dubeaub@ucs.orst.edu (Bill DuBeau) Message-Id: <277uuk$rko@gaia.ucs.orst.edu> Organization: University Computing Services - OSU Subject: Re: Flying stacks: limits? My wife has a stack of 3 ripstop trilbys. The dacron line is becoming rather tattered and I want to replace it with spectra. My question: how long and what strength line is optimum for typical Oregon coast conditions (10-20mph)? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 06:55:56 -1000 From: jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <277hes$k9t@umd5.umd.edu> Organization: University of Maryland at College Park Subject: Re: Flying stacks: limits? In article <1993Sep15.080417.559@cc.usu.edu> fataq@cc.usu.edu writes: >Dan: What exactly is a "ghost kite" that you use in your stack? Is that >just a standard set of spars or heavy-duty spars without the sail? Sort of. It's a triangle of fairly strong spars, the three points of which mimic the 2-D spatial relationship of the 3 bridle points on a diamond kite. A bridle is attached to the ghost frame and the frame is then attached to the lead kite via train lines. This takes a *lot* of stress off the lead kite. I usually see 'em with Dynakites and Rainbows; don't think I've ever seen one on a stack of Powells or trlby's. There was a brief "article" (tips 'n hints sort of thing) in a KiteLines about ghostframes a couple of years ago. If anyone's interested, I'll dig up the reference. Jeff -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | "When I look in the mirror, I see a little clearer/ | |SAFH Lite [tm] | I am what I am and you are you too./ Do you like | |jeffy@syrinx.umd.edu | what you see? Do you like yourself?" --N. Cherry | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 04:00:20 -1000 From: fataq@cc.usu.edu Message-Id: <1993Sep16.080020.602@cc.usu.edu> Organization: Utah State University Subject: Re: Flying stacks: limits? In article <277uuk$rko@gaia.ucs.orst.edu>, dubeaub@ucs.orst.edu (Bill DuBeau) writes: > My wife has a stack of 3 ripstop trilbys. The dacron line is becoming rather > tattered and I want to replace it with spectra. My question: how long and > what strength line is optimum for typical Oregon coast conditions (10-20mph)? > Bill- I use 150# Spectra with a length of 125'on a stack of 10 (hopefully to increase). I've flown at Lincoln City and in the Walport area of the Oregon coast on vacations and only wish I lived closer. Those steady breezes are ideal! Optimum wind range is on the order of 5 to 7 MPH on the low end and 10 to 15 at the high end (for my stack). Less than 5 MPH its difficult to launch and sustain flight; over 15 its a bear to hang on to. (the first time I've seen my wife panic over my kite flying was this past summer at Lincoln City - I'm guessing the winds were 15+MPH and I was moving down the beach- not air-born, but hanging on with difficulty any time the kites were near the center of the window.) A lot certainly depends on the size of the stack- As mentioned earlier in this thread on stacks, Trlby sells a 150# bridle and link lines for larger stacks. This bridle is longer than the standard 80# bridle so the drag decreases noticeably. I've started "fabricating" the link lines using the same clips because I had lots of 150# line. It saves quite a bit of money which I can use for more add ons! Trlby also sells a stronger center spar for the poly kites but I don't know if they have a "stack" upgrade for the rip stop ones. Don Fiesinger FATAQ@cc.usu.edu Geology - Utah State University Logan, UT 84322-4505 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =