From: pcreel@cnw.com (Paul Creelman) Subject: fabric type vs flying characteristics Date: Fri, 5 Apr 1996 02:23:20 -1000 Organization: Connect Nw Message-ID: does anybody know the logic behind using different fabric for making kites? i.e. Flexifoil and quadtracs seem to use a soft material ? carrington fabric vs. Sky tiger (also a parafoil type) is made out of a "crisp" ripstop material ... would a flexifoil type kite made of a "crisp" ripstop fly as well? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: mark@murder.compulink.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) Subject: Re: fabric type vs flying characteristics Date: Sat, 6 Apr 1996 05:07:20 -1000 Organization: damage Message-ID: <4k624t$ap6@zinc.compulink.co.uk> pcreel@cnw.com (Paul Creelman) wrote: >does anybody know the logic behind using different fabric for making kites? For mass-produced kites I suspect that economics has a great deal to do with it. i.e. use the cheapest material you can easily get that works reliably. I suspect Flexis are all made in the UK, where they probably have a really good deal from Carringtons. Perhaps the Sky Tigers are made in the US, and a different supplier offers a better deal. Having said that, I'm sure that there are potential technical reasons for wanting one sort of fabric over another. Possible factors that come to mind include porosity ( much discussed, but I've not seen anyone claim this was a critical factor ), resistance to damage by folding/crumpling, grain effects ( or lack of - i.e. is there more stretch in a given direction ), absolute stiffness ( i.e. how stretchy is it in general ? ), 'sewability' ( i.e. do the machines your machinists use like the stuff ? ), resistance to colour fading, and probably a few more. On a slightly different note, many small ( and some not-so-small ) kitemakers will use second - quality ripstop, and get it from wherever they can. They can't afford the significant premium for first grade stuff, and in the made up kite the difference in appearance and performance is usually neglidgable. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Final thoughts, as breath is taken, Fall to rhythm, and the Edge of pure obsession, Resting in the wind blown cradle, Nothing moves, the world is still... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: pdjnjvt@knoware.nl (Peter de Jong) Subject: Re: fabric type vs flying characteristics Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 02:23:03 -1000 Organization: Knoware Internet Message-ID: <31690520.9775331@news.knoware.nl> On Sat, 06 Apr 1996 15:07:20 GMT, mark@murder.compulink.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) wrote: > >On a slightly different note, many small ( and some not-so-small ) >kitemakers will use second - quality ripstop, and get it from wherever >they can. They can't afford the significant premium for first grade >stuff, and in the made up kite the difference in appearance and >performance is usually neglidgable. Now there is a genaralization that isn't true, most certainly not in my case.. Being a small kitemaker, the only way to compete with the big boys is to make better quality and so I use the best materials available. There is a significant differerence between first and second grade cloth. You just can't be sure of the tear strenght or the way the coating will hold. I'ts a MYTH that Icarex is a superior material compared to ripstop. It has advantages if you are sure your kite gets wet all the time or if you REALLY need a low strech material. For most foils, Carrington or other ripstops are a far better choice. In flight, all foils are deformed, and ripstop can adjust to that somewhat whilst polyester does not which leads to folds and adds drag. Another thing is that if it's "overstreched" ripstop goes back to it's original form , and polyester does not. Because of the low strech properties the seams are more vulnarable: Icarex rips more easily ( Andrew mentioned that earlier) because the load is not dispersed (hope it's the right word..) Strech in cloth is not as bad as some people think. In most delta's it helps creating a cambered sail: I've seen good kite's turn into flying nightmares when build in Icarex, if the kite has a critical design and was originally built in ripstop be careful, you'll have to adjust the desigin if you want the same characteristics.. For the record: I have nothing to do with Carrington ( don't even sell it) or hold any grudge against Icarex. They are just different materials and have different applications. Sometimes polyester will be more suitable and sometimes ripstop. Regards, Peter Greetings from Holland Peter de Jong A&F Custom Kites Werkhoven NL * 900f the time the opposite of GOOD is not BAD but WELL INTENDED * = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Subject: Re: fabric type vs flying characteristics Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Date: Mon, 8 Apr 1996 09:49:46 -1000 Message-ID: I'ts a MYTH that Icarex is a superior material compared to ripstop. Uh? It depends what you want. For my application (soft performance kites) Icarex is *undoubtedly* superior to Carrington, due to it's light weight and stiffness. On the other hand, some of the best craftsmen (Tim Benson comes to mind) utilise the characteristics of Carrington to give superior performance in their application. >Icarex rips more easily ( Andrew mentioned that earlier) because the >load is not dispersed (hope it's the right word..) I have *not* performed performance tests to compare the failure modes of Carrington and Icarex. I recall the posting, but it was my intention to discuss general principles (Icarex has more basic strenght, but Carrington will spread the load further), rather than pronounce a verdict. I don't even understand *how* to test. A failure in a soft kite tends to result in a neat rip "tear down the perforations". If I sew two scraps together and pull until it breaks, I get much stretching and deformation and a ragged edge at the stitching. Andrew -- The Kite Flier's Site: http://www.kfs.org/kites = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: pdjnjvt@knoware.nl (Peter de Jong) Subject: Re: fabric type vs flying characteristics Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 02:03:12 -1000 Organization: Knoware Internet Message-ID: <316a51f4.73269@news.knoware.nl> On Mon, 8 Apr 1996 19:49:46 GMT, andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) wrote: >>I'ts a MYTH that Icarex is a superior material compared to ripstop. >Uh? >It depends what you want. For my application (soft performance kites) >Icarex is *undoubtedly* superior to Carrington, due to it's light weight >and stiffness. On the other hand, some of the best craftsmen (Tim Benson >comes to mind) utilise the characteristics of Carrington to give >superior performance in their application. > That's exactly what I meant: Choose your material wisely. Maybe it's because of lack of availability in kite shops, but a good quality ripstop does not need to be heavier than Icarex. Still think Carrington is better for foils, unless you design the arch in.. and make the underside somewhat smaller; or if you are flying in wet conditions. Furthermore you have to design the low streching in: I'ts quite difficult to make a cambered ( 3D or whatever fancy name you give it...) sail without folds from polyester: if you look closely to to Icarex kites in flight you'll see what I mean. >>Icarex rips more easily ( Andrew mentioned that earlier) because the >>load is not dispersed (hope it's the right word..) > >I have *not* performed performance tests to compare the failure modes of >Carrington and Icarex. I recall the posting, but it was my intention to >discuss general principles (Icarex has more basic strenght, but Carrington >will spread the load further), rather than pronounce a verdict. > >I don't even understand *how* to test. A failure in a soft kite tends >to result in a neat rip "tear down the perforations". If I sew two >scraps together and pull until it breaks, I get much stretching and >deformation and a ragged edge at the stitching. > When you take a rectangular piece, and pull evenly on it from both sides I'm sure Icarex is stronger. But thats not what happens in a kite. But try for yourself: take a piece of Carrington HT ( the kind that's normally found in shops ) an a piece of Icarex, make a cut on the side and try to rip the rest. Or make a perforation line with your sewing machine and try to rip that. I am *not* stating that one ore the other is better or worse. They both have their advantages, and you have to consider carefully what proprties you want for your kite. Regards Peter Greetings from Holland Peter de Jong A&F Custom Kites Werkhoven NL * 900f the time the opposite of GOOD is not BAD but WELL INTENDED * = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: dingbat@codesmth.demon.co.uk (Andy Dingley) Subject: Re: fabric type vs flying characteristics Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 00:21:37 -1000 Organization: Codesmiths Software Development Ltd. Message-ID: <3170461f.13800917@news.demon.co.uk> The moving finger of pdjnjvt@knoware.nl (Peter de Jong) having written: >There is a significant differerence between first and >second grade cloth. There's also a big difference between batches of "seconds" grade ripstop. I'm fortunate to be near a large fabric seller (NW England) that seems to take most of Carrington's ripstop seconds. They sell this stuff for anywhere between 10p and 50p / metre, with only the most tenuous dependence on quality. If you're passing past their shop frequently, and aren't desperate for a particular colour right this minute, it's a very cheap way to collect a huge stock of perfectly good quality material. Take a look as you pass, check the quality, and only if it's good, buy some. Some of the stuff I've bought is absolute useless junk. Some of it is very soft & porous indeed - useless for kites, great for parachutes. Porous parachutes allow your bears to have a bigger and "showier" 'chute, without becoming gliderbears. I've also bought enough good quality stuff to be able to make large soft kites I'd never have been able to afford at "retail" prices. It's really worth the effort to hunt this stuff down. There are a lot of different faults in ripstop. Weaving faults are pretty rare. Most faults are to do with the proofing or calendering processes. If you try tugging at it, tearing it, creasing it and blowing through it, you'll soon get a feel for what works and what doesn't. Avoid anything that's porous when you blow it (it's also stretchy and goes slack & baggy) or develops obvious creases if you fold it (tends to tear). Dyeing faults are the best. They sell it for the lowest price of all, because it's so obvious, yet if you're cutting typically kite-sized panels you'll not even notice the small streaks. I even have one delta with a deliberate "tie dye" finish - should be good for axolotyl, or myxamatosis, or whatever it is 8-) -- Andy Dingley dingbat@codesmth.demon.co.uk "Cut the second act and the child's throat" - Noel Coward, on seeing the young Bonnie Langford on stage = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: mark@murder.compulink.co.uk (Mark de Roussier) Subject: Re: fabric type vs flying characteristics Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 10:37:29 -1000 Organization: damage Message-ID: <4kuct9$btn@zinc.compulink.co.uk> dingbat@codesmth.demon.co.uk (Andy Dingley) wrote: >The moving finger of pdjnjvt@knoware.nl (Peter de Jong) having >written: > >>There is a significant differerence between first and >>second grade cloth. > >There's also a big difference between batches of "seconds" grade >ripstop. > >I'm fortunate to be near a large fabric seller (NW England) that seems >to take most of Carrington's ripstop seconds. They sell this stuff for >anywhere between 10p and 50p / metre, with only the most tenuous >dependence on quality. Urrr... I'm prepared to believe the place you mention probably has Carringtons ripstop seconds. They make an awful lot of ripstop of all sorts. But theres only one company in the country who Carringtons deal through for K42 'seconds' ( to the chagrin of some parties ), and that's Kites Up in Basingstoke ( and that's 'seconds', not 'wrapped seconds' which is near-perfect and hence more expensive again ). The softer, more porous stuff you're describing doesn't sound like K42, not at that ( low ) price or with those properties - or at least its 'thirds' not 'seconds'. But I agree with your analysis of fault types - the dyeing ones are fun, and are often found at the start and/or end of rolls. You sometimes wonder why they don't make entire rolls in the wonderful colour that seems to be located 403cm from the end of this one roll... NB I have no commercial association with Kites Up, other than as a customer - but I have been known to buy the owner a beer... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Final thoughts, as breath is taken, Fall to rhythm, and the Edge of pure obsession, Resting in the wind blown cradle, Nothing moves, the world is still... = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =