From: jcampbell3@msmail3.hac.com (Campbell, James E) Subject: Delta Stunter Nose Width/Assembly Question Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:49:03 -1000 Organization: HAC Message-ID: Here's a strange question for the rec.kite group to consider. Why is it that some delta stunt kite manufacturer's use a rather wide and flexible nose assembly technique, and other's (including myself) use a rather narrow and rigid nose assembly technique? I'm trying to figure out if there is any technical advantage to using the wider nose assembly approach. I can think of many advantages to keeping the nose assembly rigid, but the flexible approach escapes me. What am I missing here? Thanks. -- James E. Campbell (jcampbell3@msmail3.hac.com) Hughes Aircraft Company Leading Edge Kites = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: sendan Subject: Re: Delta Stunter Nose Width/Assembly Question Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 07:23:11 -1000 Organization: Hawaii OnLine - Honolulu, HI Message-ID: <31C988FF.6303@aloha.net> Disclaimer: This is by no means an 'expert' opinion. only my opinion. That aside. I think that the nose width probably has some effect on the way a kite flies. For example, The ALLEGRO, one of my favorite kites, has an extremely wide nose, almost 8 inches. If you watch this kite as it flies, the nose deforms as the kite turns. Hard for me to describe exactly what i mean. I talked to the distributor for this kite (Shanti) and was told that the wide nose was a design 'feature'. I suppose that to really test this, I should build a couple of kites, identical except for the nose width. anyone else? Maybe we should convince Andrew Beattie to build framed kites. :-) Then we'd all know! nathan sendan = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: jcampbell3@msmail3.hac.com (Campbell, James E) Subject: Re: Delta Stunter Nose Width/Assembly Question Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:43:55 -1000 Organization: HAC Message-ID: In article <31C988FF.6303@aloha.net>, sendan wrote: > I think that the nose width probably has some effect on the way a kite > flies. The only technical reason that I can understand where a wider nose would change flight characteristics would be that the spine/keel alignment would change as a function of sail pressure. As sail pressure picks up, the upper spine would be allowed to move back slightly thereby effecting a minor change in the attack angle. From a flight perspective, this would slow the linear flight of the kite and perhaps decrease the turning radius slightly. But the question remains, why not just keep the nose rigid and tune the kite properly to begin with? My thanks to all of you rec.kiters who have responded to this thread. -- James E. Campbell (jcampbell3@msmail3.hac.com) Hughes Aircraft Company Leading Edge Kites = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: plepez@ulb.ac.be (Philippe LEPEZ) Subject: Re: Delta Stunter Nose Width/Assembly Question Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 05:41:07 -1000 Organization: Free University of Brussels Message-ID: <4qbrej$3ef@rc1.vub.ac.be> In article , jcampbell3@msmail3.hac.com says... > >Here's a strange question for the rec.kite group to consider. Why is it >that some delta stunt kite manufacturer's use a rather wide and flexible >nose assembly technique, and other's (including myself) use a rather >narrow and rigid nose assembly technique? I'm trying to figure out if >there is any technical advantage to using the wider nose assembly >approach. I can think of many advantages to keeping the nose assembly >rigid, but the flexible approach escapes me. What am I missing here? >Thanks. Well James, I asked this question about 3 years ago and got no real answer. The general advice was that it doesn't realy matter. Now, if I remember well, the first Raaseri Simo Salanne designed was a narrow noze kite. Simo was not happy with it. He then widdens the noze and got a much better kite. Simo, if you are back from Fanoe, can you confirm this and maybe elaborate ? Regards. Philippe (who build its kites with a 'medium' wide noze, not knowing why) = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: Marty Sasaki Subject: Re: Delta Stunter Nose Width/Assembly Question Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:44:46 -1000 Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Message-ID: <199606220144.VAA08496@endor.harvard.edu> It turns out that the shape of the nose can have a profound effect on the way a kite flys. The nose determines how the leading edge near the nose is shaped which can really change the lift/drag characteristics of the leading edge. If haven't seen any of Paul Shuman's kites, take a good hard look at them. On the Stripes, Paul has used a wide nose and using a cord from one side to the other he has created a little tunnel right at the nose. Kites with this tunnel flew faster than otherwise identical kites. Kites with tunnels fly in lighter wind as well. Keep watching Paul, I know he has a few more really good ideas that will change the way we make framed stunt kites. -- Marty Sasaki sasaki@das.harvard.edu = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: bluekites@inmind.com (BlueKites) Subject: Re: Delta Stunter Nose Width/Assembly Question Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 02:09:05 -1000 Organization: Blue Ridge Kites Message-ID: <4qe3ag$f7@mujibur.inmind.com> In article , jcampbell3@msmail3.hac.com (Campbell, James E) wrote: >Here's a strange question for the rec.kite group to consider. Why is it >that some delta stunt kite manufacturer's use a rather wide and flexible >nose assembly technique, and other's (including myself) use a rather >narrow and rigid nose assembly technique? I'm trying to figure out if >there is any technical advantage to using the wider nose assembly >approach. I can think of many advantages to keeping the nose assembly >rigid, but the flexible approach escapes me. What am I missing here? >Thanks. Depeding on the purpose of the kite I am designing, I will use either a wide or narrow nose. If you want a kite that is precise and has minimal oversteer, then one of the many objectives is to create a deep and efficient foil shape. To take this shape to the nose of the kite creates a problem if the only nose you can make is rigid, it means that the foil will have to thin out as it appraches the nose and flow into a flat plane. This elliminates the lift from the nose area of the kite and creates a very dense ratio of sail area to weight in the area above the top spreader. If you use a broad flat nose the foil can continue all the way up to the nose and there is no area at the top of the kite with such a bad sail area to weight ratio. So, for some kites I use broad noses to: Allow me to run the foil up to the nose Reduce the sail area to weight reatio of that portion of the kite above the top spreader Lower the center of gravity if needed. The results of doing this are: Better tracking Harder pulling kites due to more efficient sail area Less oversteer and very accurate cornering due to the lack of the dead area that is at the nose of sharp nosed kites. The drawbacks are: A reduction of "trickability" of the kite. James Ervin/Blue Ridge Kites/Check out the new kite page at bluekites@inmind.com/ http://www.inmind.com/bluekites/kites.html (540) 586-9590 And the new Benjamin Kite Cartoon at http://www.inmind.com/bluekites/ben.html ____________________________________________________________________ Can I go home now? My brain is full. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: neitzke Subject: Re: Delta Stunter Nose Width/Assembly Question Message-ID: <31CAA8D7.874@se01.elk.miles.com> Organization: Bayer Corporation Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 03:51:19 -1000 Campbell, James E wrote: > > Here's a strange question for the rec.kite group to consider. Why is it > that some delta stunt kite manufacturer's use a rather wide and flexible > nose assembly technique, and other's (including myself) use a rather > narrow and rigid nose assembly technique? I'm trying to figure out if > there is any technical advantage to using the wider nose assembly > approach. I can think of many advantages to keeping the nose assembly > rigid, but the flexible approach escapes me. What am I missing here? > Thanks. Hi Jim, I, apparently like you, like th loks of a "sharper" nose, however ... Wider noses would tend to spread, as opposed to concentrate any impact that might occur. ( first guess ) Also, I suspect that there are some dynamic "things" happening as the kite is turned ( pulled ) which, with the wider nose, would highten the turn effect due to the wider nose's greater ability to deform. My Bad Boy has a wide nose and has an "oversteer" IMHO. But, I would not presume to compete so we'll both have to wait for more authoritative replies. -- Bob Neitzke birdofplay@aol.com http://members.aol.com/birdofplay = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: Holly Fee-Timm Subject: Re: Delta Stunter Nose Width/Assembly Question Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 07:59:28 -1000 Organization: Footprints Message-ID: <31CAE300.5E8F@bright.net> Campbell, James E wrote: > Here's a strange question for the rec.kite group to consider. Why is >it that some delta stunt kite manufacturer's use a rather wide and >flexible nose assembly technique, and other's (including myself) use a >rather narrow and rigid nose assembly technique? I'm trying to figure >out if there is any technical advantage to using the wider nose assembly >approach. I can think of many advantages to keeping the nose assembly >rigid, but the flexible approach escapes me. What am I missing here? > Thanks. Well, before I say anything keep in mind that I am not and have never been a kite builder or designer. In my six years of flying I have noticed that kites with the "flexible" nose design are generally more responsive, cut better corners and are easier to do tricks with. I have not seen any difference in tracking. John Barresi icyair@bright.net = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = From: goodwinds@aol.com (Goodwinds) Subject: Re: Delta Stunter Nose Width/Assembly Question Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 16:39:32 -1000 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Message-ID: <4qfmd4$sv7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Hear, hear James Ervin you seem to have caught on to the proper response. Just ask Don Tabor, the father of the wide nose. He did know what he was doing after all. Give the old man a hand. (clap, clap, applause, applause) Kathy Goodwind. 8^) (Tanks Alice I finally got it!)\ rec.kites = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =