Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 16:54:33 -1000 From: ahclem0013@aol.com Message-Id: <9311232154.tn249184@aol.com> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: COPYRIGHT OF bridle Thanks Marty!! In regards to Simo Salanne's request<1993nov23.07382.14861@funet.fi>Marty has said a mouthful! The bridle that we have created for our kites took over one hundred hours of concentrated, logged, development work with an additional hundred hours of testing by team members to get feedback on said bridle. Our chief bridle guy Herb Weldon, working on our behalf has endured much to take this project, which began over a year ago, to completion in relitive secrecy. You can not imagine the frustration any creator feels when someone copies your work and doesn't even acknowledge it! There are many stories about people who have made whole careers out of doing this so it does happen, and there is not a whole lot that we can do about it. Patents are worthless to any but the very rich. Don't believe me, research it! Personally i don't mind if anyone copies anything we do for their own personel (not for resale)use, i just wish they'd buy one kite before they did! We got the cross bridle idea from Mike Simmons, but he did not think of it. If your truly interested in the bridle and would like a glimpse into the development process, contact Herb at WELDON AERO LABS 12707 Crystal Ave. Grandview, MO 64030 Include $2 for his trouble and request the cross-shunt bridle report for team mambers, it's 5 pages of what, how, and why. Remember, kites are one of the easiest things in the world to build, anyone can do it. Creating one however, can take years(honest)so respect these that do and ask them first! Most creators i know are very giving people. And Thanks Marty, you are right on as usual! = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 00:33:42 -1000 From: salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) Message-Id: <1993Nov24.103342.27712@funet.fi> Organization: Finnish University and Research Network FUNET Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT OF bridle In <9311232154.tn249184@aol.com> ahclem0013@aol.com writes: >Thanks Marty!! >In regards to Simo Salanne's request<1993nov23.07382.14861@funet.fi>Marty has >said a mouthful! (text deleted) >Remember, kites are one of the easiest things in the world to build, anyone >can do it. Creating one however, can take years(honest)so respect these that >do and ask them first! Most creators i know are very giving people. >And Thanks Marty, you are right on as usual! Dean, I think did "ask first", didn't I? I understand your and Marty's replies so, that the cross, shunt bridle is a "trade secret". I have got an answer. Thank's. Simo -- Simo.Salanne@csc.fi -- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 01:53:25 -1000 From: micha@ekpux3.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Michael Schneider) Message-Id: <2cvhvl$rfq@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT OF bridle ahclem0013@aol.com wrote: : Thanks Marty!! : : In regards to Simo Salanne's request<1993nov23.07382.14861@funet.fi>Marty has : said a mouthful! : The bridle that we have created for our kites took over one hundred hours of : concentrated, logged, development work with an additional hundred hours of : testing by team members to get feedback on said bridle. Our chief bridle guy : Herb Weldon, working on our behalf has endured much to take this project, : which began over a year ago, to completion in relitive secrecy. : You can not imagine the frustration any creator feels when someone copies : your work and doesn't even acknowledge it! : There are many stories about people who have made whole careers out of doing : this so it does happen, and there is not a whole lot that we can do about it. : Patents are worthless to any but the very rich. Don't believe me, research : it! : Personally i don't mind if anyone copies anything we do for their own : personel (not for resale)use, i just wish they'd buy one kite before they : did! We got the cross bridle idea from Mike Simmons, but he did not think of : it. : If your truly interested in the bridle and would like a glimpse into the : development process, contact Herb at WELDON AERO LABS 12707 Crystal : Ave. Grandview, MO 64030 : Include $2 for his trouble and request the cross-shunt bridle report for team : mambers, it's 5 pages of what, how, and why. : Remember, kites are one of the easiest things in the world to build, anyone : can do it. Creating one however, can take years(honest)so respect these that : do and ask them first! Most creators i know are very giving people. : And Thanks Marty, you are right on as usual! why don't you, dean, marty and other kitemakers, just sell your ideas, plans, construction advices and patents like the cross-shunt bridle report? if somebody wants to fly your kites, but has not the money to buy it, he will make a copy or rip-off from an original one, and you get nothing. after some time you will find plans from your kites with minor(bad) modifications in kite books or cheap and wrong copies are offered in kitestores, again you get nothing. i'm one of this kitefliers who cannot pay hundreds of $s for a kite, so i build them for myself with books or copied plans. example: to build a 6ft flexi i bought a plan for 5DM, which is partially wrong(profile) and has only minor changes(1 or 2 more profiles) to the original one. if flexi sells a plan and construction advices, i'm willing to pay flexi much more money than 5DM for it, because i'm sure that they know what they are writing! this would change nothing concerning copyrights or patents and it would also not change the habit of the kiters who only buy originals. only the market for wrong plans and bad books will become smaller. other aspect: your kites become much faster popular all over the world. i've never seen a katana or x-1 or .... in germany, and i even don't know where i can buy this kites in germany. but if you sell me a plan, i can build the kite, fly the kite and tell other people where to get the plans or the original kite. the discussions on copyrights and patents is not worth the time you spend for reading and writing, and in the end nobody will be satisfied. i hope that my remarks won't start a long and boring discussion with noone satisfied in the end. micha -- ================================================================== Michael Schneider Institut fuer Experimentelle Kernphysik der Universitaet Karlsruhe Engesserstr. 7(Physikhochhaus), 76128 Karlsruhe 1 micha@ekpux2.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de | BD14@DKAUNI2.BITNET ================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1993 06:10:02 -1000 From: ilh@goldilocks.lcs.mit.edu (Lee Hetherington) Message-Id: Organization: MIT/LCS Spoken Language Systems Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT OF bridle I think Michael makes some good points. Perhaps designers could sell official plans of their kites for a modest price. As a builder, I'd much rather work from the correct plans, and I'd love to pay the designer for his/her efforts. I'd be willing to pay something like $30 for the plans of a high-end kite. Of course, designers would be worried about people mass-producing their kite, or studying their plans closely only to make slight modifications first. There are legitimate reasons for wanting to build one's own kite. Saving money is only one of them. It's very satisfying to fly a kite and say that you built it, even if you didn't design it. You get to design your own graphics as well. Overall, this could be a good way for people to get legitmate plans while at the same time paying the designers for their *design*, not construction. The labor is one of the highest costs in a kite, right? Any comments from the designers out there? Marty? Dean? -- Lee Hetherington ilh@lcs.mit.edu = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1993 12:37:14 -1000 From: allanc@syacus.acus.oz.au (Allan Charlton) Message-Id: Organization: Australian Centre for Unisys Software, ACUS Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT OF bridle Hear, hear! Micha has made a really good point. I am not in a position to buy a Katana (much as I would like to) and there is probably nobody selling them in this country anyway. I would be happy to pay a fair price for a pattern. HOWEVER, I acknowledge that a substantial portion of the price is in the skilful labour involved in making the kite. I am quite sure that very few, if any, people could make a Katana as well as Marty does. The same goes for Peter and his Peels, Dean and his X-1, etc. If Marty, Dean, Peter, etc choose to keep their designs to themselves I understand and support the decision. It's not a simple matter. But I am sure there are some designs that could be published in the manner Micha suggested, and everybody would benefit. Allan allanc@syacus.acus.oz.au = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 04:50:58 -1000 From: ilh@goldilocks.lcs.mit.edu (Lee Hetherington) Message-Id: Organization: MIT/LCS Spoken Language Systems Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT OF bridle In article allanc@syacus.acus.oz.au (Allan Charlton) writes: | HOWEVER, I acknowledge that a substantial portion of the price is in the | skilful labour involved in making the kite. I am quite sure that very few, | if any, people could make a Katana as well as Marty does. The same goes for | Peter and his Peels, Dean and his X-1, etc. I agree. | If Marty, Dean, Peter, etc choose to keep their designs to themselves I | understand and support the decision. It's not a simple matter. | But I am sure there are some designs that could be published in the manner | Micha suggested, and everybody would benefit. Certainly it is the designers prerogative to publish or not. I agree that they have the right to keep it to themselves. Having people build bad versions of commercial kites, even legitimately, could hurt the reputation of the real thing. -- Lee Hetherington ilh@lcs.mit.edu = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 05:54:28 -1000 From: micha@ekpux3.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Michael Schneider) Message-Id: <2d58rk$g10@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> Organization: University of Karlsruhe, Germany Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT OF bridle Lee Hetherington (ilh@goldilocks.lcs.mit.edu) wrote: : In article : allanc@syacus.acus.oz.au (Allan Charlton) writes: : | HOWEVER, I acknowledge that a substantial portion of the price is in the : | skilful labour involved in making the kite. I am quite sure that very few, : | if any, people could make a Katana as well as Marty does. The same goes for : | Peter and his Peels, Dean and his X-1, etc. : : I agree. : : | If Marty, Dean, Peter, etc choose to keep their designs to themselves I : | understand and support the decision. It's not a simple matter. : | But I am sure there are some designs that could be published in the manner : | Micha suggested, and everybody would benefit. : : Certainly it is the designers prerogative to publish or not. I agree : that they have the right to keep it to themselves. Having people build : bad versions of commercial kites, even legitimately, could hurt the : reputation of the real thing. if designers publish their plans or not does not essantially change the number of bad versions of good kites. if marty and dean make every kite they sell by themselves, i'm sure their profite is lousy. they should better be paid for their ideas than for their skilful work. if you cannot stop illegal copying of kites, then the designers should at least benefit from it. HQ(high quality), a manufactur in germany, sells plans of its kites: elektron, silent-dart, batkite, ... they charge less than 10DM for their plans, and the kites are really not bad. please don't understand this 10DM as a margin. i'm willing to pay about 30DM for an original plan of the australian 3-11, even so i have the oportunity to make a copy of a friends original. i'm very curious about dean's and marty's opinions. micha -- ================================================================== Michael Schneider Institut fuer Experimentelle Kernphysik der Universitaet Karlsruhe Engesserstr. 7(Physikhochhaus), 76128 Karlsruhe 1 micha@ekpux2.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de | BD14@DKAUNI2.BITNET ================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1993 12:37:44 -1000 From: salanne@convex.csc.FI (Simo Salanne) Message-Id: <1993Nov26.223744.27252@funet.fi> Organization: Finnish University and Research Network FUNET Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT OF bridle In <2d58rk$g10@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> micha@ekpux3.physik.uni-karlsruhe.de (Michael Schneider) writes: (text deleted) >if designers publish their plans or not does not essantially change >the number of bad versions of good kites. if marty and dean make every >kite they sell by themselves, i'm sure their profit is lousy. Sure, I canceled my Katana order, because of multiple "on next Monday" (during three months) promises the manufacturer couldn't ship. The design can be perfect, but if the kite is vaporware you cannot enjoy of it. Today we have so many suppliers, that the quality of service with $$$ price tag matters. Smooth Winds Simo -- Simo.Salanne@csc.fi -- = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sun, 28 Nov 1993 21:57:18 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: COPYRIGHT OF bridle ilh@goldilocks.lcs.mit.edu writes: >The labor is one of the highest costs in a kite, right? Hmmm.... I am neither a manufacturer or a trader, but I would expect that if we looked at an international, high volume production kite, we would find that both the retailer and the tax man (in fact a whole slew of different tax men) would claim more of the final retail cost than the labourer. Andrew -- Work: gaffer@rec.com Phone: +44 793 614 110 Fax: +44 793 614 297 Play: andrew@tug.com Phone: +44 256 464 912 Interested in kite traction? mail kites@tug.com = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =