Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 13:58:16 -1000 From: dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) Message-Id: <199506052358.AA05662@ednet1.osl.or.gov> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Computerized Scoring/Reporting Results Perhaps my last posting was unclear. Traveling to and participating in these events can cost several hundred, if not many hundreds, of dollars. It also involves a significant amount of practice time, preparation, and usually some time off from work. Event organizers should be responsible enough to promptly and accurately submit results to all relevant ranking bodies. (This is not simply an AKA matter. Eastern League, Western League, AKM and the SWSKL are also effected.) But if they don't submit those scores, simply dropping the event will hurt the fliers as much, if not more so, than the organizers. And I don't like the idea of making fliers innocent victims when they spent all that time and money in good faith. Yes, we need to provide incentives and penalties so people will get the results in. I know how much time some Conference Commissioners have spent chasing results. But what I'm suggesting is an alternative which focuses the "punishment" on the perpetrator, not the participants. Withholding AKA sanctioning (and participation in the Conference system) sends a strong message, and gives fliers warning that they shouldn't spend time on the event since it won't be counting. I am NOT suggesting that we let events off the hook. -- David Gomberg/Cascade Kites phone 503-996-3083 Box 113, Neotsu Oregon 97364 USA fax 503-994-9692 Specializing in BIG "show" kites and Peter Lynn Inflatibles For info, see http;//www.kite.com/~crowell/casckites.html = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 5 Jun 1995 16:48:26 -1000 From: vraun@freenet.niagara.com (Vaino Raun) Message-Id: Organization: Niagara Peninsula Free-Net Subject: Re: Computerized Scoring/Reporting Results Just a bit of a bitch here but why does a topic such as this now occupy 8 subject threads. I've recently looked something up in the archives and it helps if a topic is kept to one thread, or if the subject shifts slightly, then a new thread but references the original. Warm Winds... -- Vaino Raun..... St. Catharines, ONT vraun@freenet.niagara.com Canada = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 06:32:06 -1000 From: skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) Message-Id: <3r1vu6$fiq@news1.shell> Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data) Subject: Re: Computerized Scoring/Reporting Results David Gomberg (dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov) wrote: : Traveling to and participating in these events can cost several : hundred, if not many hundreds, of dollars. It also involves a : significant amount of practice time, preparation, and usually : some time off from work. Agreed. : Event organizers should be responsible enough to promptly and : accurately submit results to all relevant ranking bodies. (This is : not simply an AKA matter. Eastern League, Western League, AKM and : the SWSKL are also effected.) But if they don't submit those : scores, simply dropping the event will hurt the fliers as much, : if not more so, than the organizers. And I don't like the idea : of making fliers innocent victims when they spent all that time and : money in good faith. If the scores are not counted the only one who suffers is the flier, he spent his (or his sponors) money to attend the event, his time practicing, his time competing. The event organizer has his money in his pocket. : Yes, we need to provide incentives and penalties so people will : get the results in. I know how much time some Conference Commissioners : have spent chasing results. But what I'm suggesting is an alternative : which focuses the "punishment" on the perpetrator, not the participants. I think that incentives and penalties would be best. How about increasing sanctioning fees to events who do not give thier results on time, and giving a rebate for scores submitted withing 10 days of the event, along with charging more fees for late results, and increasing sanctioning costs to that event in the next year. Maybe the AKA could start puting a mark next to each event in the calendar that has its sanction papers in on time. Rich ========================================================================== Richard & Kim Cornwell skyvis@shell.portal.com Sky Vision Kites http://www.portal.com/~skyvis 415-112 No. Mary Av. Suite 111, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 (408) 733-9313 Coming soon 8' FlashPoints. ========================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 6 Jun 1995 10:35:59 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <3r2e7f$rvp@ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Computerized Scoring/Reporting Results In <3r1vu6$fiq@news1.shell> skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) writes: > >David Gomberg (dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov) wrote: > >: Yes, we need to provide incentives and penalties so people will >: get the results in. I know how much time some Conference Commissioners >: have spent chasing results. But what I'm suggesting is an alternative >: which focuses the "punishment" on the perpetrator, not the participants. > > I think that incentives and penalties would be best. How about increasing >sanctioning fees to events who do not give thier results on time, and >giving a rebate for scores submitted withing 10 days of the event, along with >charging more fees for late results, and increasing sanctioning costs to >that event in the next year. > > Maybe the AKA could start puting a mark next to each event in the calendar >that has its sanction papers in on time. Very well thought out idea. One I'd have to agree with 100 As far as allowing event organizers to submit scores well after the August cut off date then personally I feel that the qualifying system would then be inaccurate. I feel we must have a cut off date. And a penalty system as mentioned by Rich. -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 03:21:51 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky ) Message-Id: <3rpc5f$506@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Computerized Scoring/Reporting Results In <199506052358.AA05662@ednet1.osl.or.gov> dgomberg@ednet1.osl.or.gov (David Gomberg) writes: >Perhaps my last posting was unclear. > >Traveling to and participating in these events can cost several >hundred, if not many hundreds, of dollars. It also involves a >significant amount of practice time, preparation, and usually >some time off from work. >Event organizers should be responsible enough to promptly and >accurately submit results to all relevant ranking bodies. (This is >not simply an AKA matter. Eastern League, Western League, AKM and >the SWSKL are also effected.) But if they don't submit those >scores, simply dropping the event will hurt the fliers as much, >if not more so, than the organizers. And I don't like the idea >of making fliers innocent victims when they spent all that time and >money in good faith. This is true. There may be some, like you mentioned before, unforseen circumstances which prevented an event organizer from submitting the results. This must also be taken into consideration. Recommendation: If the AKA were to establish a cutoff date, which the event organizers were bound to and maybe even a "late filing date" which they could ask for an extention of time to submit the scores. This would then create an enforcement tool within the AKA. The punishment would be the responsibility of the event organizer not the AKA. If, for example, an event organizer submits the scores of their event after the AKA's cutoff date (date which the AKA determines who is qualified to compete) and these scores would have qualified an individual then who is responsible? The event organizer is ultimetly the responsible party. The event organizer is the one who agreed to the sanctioning request. If they fail to conform to the standards (or whatever) of the sanctioning request, and the scores from their event are not included with in the AKA's "Ranking System" then the event organizer failed on their part of the agreement. This would then bind or make liable the even organizer to the contestant who could then seek damages. By the AKA looking to remedy the situitation by accumuating the scores regardless, would interfere with the civil process. As a group contestants could then file a class action suit. >Yes, we need to provide incentives and penalties so people will >get the results in. I know how much time some Conference Commissioners >have spent chasing results. But what I'm suggesting is an alternative >which focuses the "punishment" on the perpetrator, not the participants. Exactly, but we also need to consider all the ramification of our actions to the contestants to the event organizer and to the terms within the insurance which is provided by the AKA. (By the way what are the terms of that policy?) >Withholding AKA sanctioning (and participation in the Conference >system) sends a strong message, and gives fliers warning that they >shouldn't spend time on the event since it won't be counting. Maybe not. Any event (ie Rockport) can change its management. In that case the event last year may not be managed the same way as the one this year. Therefore consideration must be from year to year and not based on the prior year only. >I am NOT suggesting that we let events off the hook. These are some very good points. I hope this doesn't sound offensive just because I write a rebuttal to David Gomberg's post. I would like to add, that every one with an opinion on this matter should comment, regardless weather they agree or disagree. -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 15 Jun 1995 03:32:40 -1000 From: mr.nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky ) Message-Id: <3rpcpo$58i@ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: Computerized Scoring/Reporting Results In vraun@freenet.niagara.com (Vaino Raun) writes: > >Just a bit of a bitch here but why does a topic such as this now occupy 8 >subject threads. I've recently looked something up in the archives and it >helps if a topic is kept to one thread, or if the subject shifts >slightly, then a new thread but references the original. > >Warm Winds... >-- >Vaino Raun..... St. Catharines, ONT >vraun@freenet.niagara.com Canada This is true. But consider this, if a thread, such as this, takes up so many subject threads then it must be important enough to spin off into different topics of discussion. Kiting is an exciting activity and I know many of us here enjoy the fun. Even those of us who nitpick at each other seem to get along at kite festivals. But there is also more which many do not take the time to consider. It is fine to enjoy kiting. It is even more fun to enjoy it with a bunch of others who have been biten but the bug. But to get these people together takes some administrative action. This action is so that there can remain a fair advantage to all who gather on a field to fly kites. If we do not work out issues here then we are certanily not going to be able to work them out on the field. I realize that sometimes these threads go off in tangents and turn into flame wars. And that gets some people pretty angry. Some of the stuff I have read which doesn't pertain to anything relevant in kiting has frustrated me. But it is there, and if I choose not to bother with it I ignore it. If I read it then I choose to. -- *************>>>>>>>>>>>>>MR.NASTY<<<<<<<<<<<<<************** Fiesta Kite Ideas http://www.tmn.com/kiteweb/home.htm 8302 Tiguex Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com Universal City, TX 78148 (210) 659-1803 or (512) 326-6221 ************************************************************* = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =