Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 14:39:35 -1000 From: ciuffo@rainbow.rmii.com (Aaron Ciuffo) Message-Id: <4ccj87$c4b@natasha.rmii.com> Organization: Rocky Mountain Internet Inc. Subject: Bridles and Peels I have a 3.4m Peel. I love it. The one thing I am slightly disapointed in though is the over all speed. I know this is not exactly a "fast" kite but I am curious in regards to the bridle. It seems like there could be a better meathod to bridling this beast. In my limited experience, I have found that bridles such as this tend to create a TON of drag. I also know some of the reasons for a crossbridled nightmare such as this. I was wondering if there was a meathod that used less bridle, and still helped keep the shape in turns. Is there a meathod that will allow me to slim down the bridle and still keep the kite from folding up in a tight turn? Thanks Aaron = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 2 Jan 1996 21:51:50 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Bridles and Peels ciuffo@rainbow.rmii.com (Aaron Ciuffo) writes: > I have a 3.4m Peel. I love it. The one thing I am slightly >disapointed in though is the over all speed. Peels are not particularly fast kites. In particular, they are not as fast as flexies or Sputniks. Personaly, I like the speed. I'm making kites based on the Sputnik profile, but I'm fattening it up a bit to slow it down. > I was wondering if there was a meathod that used less bridle, and >still helped keep the shape in turns. I'll bet that you've got a polyester bridle. I would replace it with Spectra. On the big stuff, Peter uses 120lb cross bridle and 80lb primaries. I use 80lb all over. They won't snap due to over strain in normal flight. Andy Hawkens can confirm that such a bridle will withstand strain *way* outside it's design requirements but they are more prone to damage from abuse and it is more likely that failure will be catestrophic: if you break 1 line, you'll over-strain the adjacent line and you end up breaking the *entire* bridle in the blink of an eye. I'd use less than 80 in the primary bridle, but I don't think I can tie it well enough. The accepted wisdom is that you put *more* strain on the bridle of a small kite than on a big one, because it's the small one that you bring out in a hurricane. Also, you can consider cutting some of the cross bridles if you like. a b c d e f g h i j k l m 1 2 Maybe you can do without 2-a, 2-c, 2-e, 1-m, 1-k and 1-i Also, there was a completely different cross-bridle published in Drachen recently - sort of like 2 half catenary bridles. It looked like it used more line than a regular Cat and less than a Peel-style cross-bridle. Andrew -- http://www.kfs.org/kites as returned to life! = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 19:58:52 -1000 From: andrewh@hal.harvard.edu (Andrew Hawken) Message-Id: <4ciems$7h9@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> Organization: Queen Mary & Westfield College, London, UK Subject: Re: Bridles and Peels Andrew Beattie (andrew@tug.com) wrote: : On the big stuff, Peter uses 120lb cross bridle and 80lb primaries. : I use 80lb all over. They won't snap due to over strain in normal flight. : Andy Hawkens can confirm that such a bridle will withstand strain *way* : outside it's design requirements but they are more prone to damage from : abuse and it is more likely that failure will be catestrophic: if you break : 1 line, you'll over-strain the adjacent line and you end up breaking the : *entire* bridle in the blink of an eye. I'd use less than 80 in the : primary bridle, but I don't think I can tie it well enough. Yep, I can confirm it! Andrew got his sput, himself, his tandem buggy, with me in the back, all clear of the ground! I use 80lb bridle in all but the wingtips of the primaries and secondaries for my Catenary bridled sputs. I intially found the 'Union' problem... one out all out, especially in tight turns. With 300lb on the wingtips only this has not happened again (14 months and lots of abuse!) Andy -- __ Andrew Hawken ________________________________________________________ a.hawken@qmw.ac.uk __ As far as I can make out, *I* am responsible?! __ andiih@micromuse.com ____________________________________________________ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 5 Jan 1996 15:20:51 -1000 From: Steve Bateman Message-Id: <4ckipj$sn4@hole.sdsu.edu> Organization: San Diego State University Subject: Re: Bridles and Peels andrewh@hal (Andrew Hawken) wrote: > I use 80lb bridle in all but the wingtips of the primaries and > secondaries for my Catenary bridled sputs. I intially found the > 'Union' problem... one out all out, especially in tight turns. With > 300lb on the wingtips only this has not happened again (14 months and > lots of abuse!) Could you explain this more (the one out all out part)? Thanks. Steve Bateman bateman@mail.sdsu.edu Flying along. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 12:51:21 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: Bridles and Peels Steve Bateman writes: >Could you explain this more (the one out all out part)? Let's construct an artificial example. You have a canopy with 10 bridles. In a dive, it produces 500lb of pull. Each bridle knot is rated at 60lb. The pull is evenly distributed. Each knot has 50lb of pull and is quite capable. If a knot should fail, for one of several possible reasons, the strain will be split between the adjoining knots, which will now have 75lb of strain. These knots will also fail. Within a fraction of a second, the entire bridle has completely failed. I've done this twice: 1) A Spectra bridle where I failed to use keeper-knots. 13 knots slipped out (untied themselves) in a single instant. 2) With a Peel on light-weight flying lines. I broke both flying lines (not the bridle) simultaneously. If you've designing and you've never experienced this kind of failure, your bridle is *far* too heavy. Andrew -- I *am* going to El Mirage, but still selling Chevrons: (X-bridled Sputnik) 2 * 7.1m^2 white, Spectra cross bridle. 1/2oz Icarex US$450 <- both reserved 7.1m^2 as above with black ribs (white is transparant) US$500 12m^2+ Orange + black double-chevron (buggy when others must walk!) US$750 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 8 Jan 1996 13:13:06 -1000 From: Steve Bateman Message-Id: <4cs8e2$enq@hole.sdsu.edu> Organization: San Diego State University Subject: Re: Bridles and Peels andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) wrote: > > Steve Bateman writes: > >Could you explain this more (the one out all out part)? > > Let's construct an artificial example. > > You have a canopy with 10 bridles. In a dive, it produces 500lb of pull. > > Each bridle knot is rated at 60lb. > > The pull is evenly distributed. Each knot has 50lb of pull and is quite > capable. > > If a knot should fail, for one of several possible reasons, the strain will > be split between the adjoining knots, which will now have 75lb of strain. > These knots will also fail. Within a fraction of a second, the entire > bridle has completely failed. I guess what I didn't understand was the 300lb on the wingtips part, inconjuction with the expression 'one out all out'. It read like he used 300lb spectra on the wingtips, but now it reads to me that he was referring to 300lb of force. Correct? Steve Bateman 'Never doubt that a small group of bateman@mail.sdsu.edu thoughtful committed citizens can change Flying along. the world. Indeed it's the only thing that ever has.' Margaret Mead = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:45:53 -1000 From: andrewh@hal.harvard.edu (Andrew Hawken) Message-Id: <4cunmh$a8@epsilon.qmw.ac.uk> Organization: Queen Mary & Westfield College, London, UK Subject: Re: Bridles and Peels Steve Bateman (bateman@mail.sdsu.edu) wrote: : andrewh@hal (Andrew Hawken) wrote: : > I use 80lb bridle in all but the wingtips of the primaries and : > 300lb on the wingtips only this has not happened again (14 months and : Could you explain this more (the one out all out part)? : Thanks. When I first made the 5m I kept having problems with breaking bridles. In a hard turn, one of the wingtip bridle lines would break. Within half a second, the rest would follow with an unzipping noise. I would be left with the kite attached to me only by the opposite wingtip line. I figured that there was probably a lot of strain on the outide line in a turn, so I pushed the rating for that line up. One out All Out are the union rules :-) I just finished my 10m sput, and there is some more bridling info in my post about that. -- __ Andrew Hawken ________________________________________________________ a.hawken@qmw.ac.uk __ As far as I can make out, *I* am responsible?! __ andiih@micromuse.com ____________________________________________________ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =