Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 05:24:28 -1000 From: JBENEDICT@law.fordham.edu (Jason Benedict) Message-Id: <950810112428.21007304@law.fordham.edu> Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology Subject: Black Hole and Tracers >: I surely agree that the XTC and Eclipse sort of "flatter" sail, are >: much more conducive to high impact "sliding" tricks. These kites tend to >: dump air with less effort. > > I disagree with this, it is more a matter of proper CG and oversteer, >that allow kites to do this. I have found that flat kite are easier to >pull out of the air, but I think that this is what may make them more >radical. First, What is "CG" ? Secondly, it has nothing to do with "oversteer". Tracers as well as Air Masters have no discernable oversteer with factory settings ( of course, you can tune that stability out as well.. ) and they do these tricks as well as stop dead when given the right input. Dodd's Masters routine from last year showed us that repeatedly. > >: Although, for the uninformed, I just want to clear up the misconception >: that deep sails," DON'T do these tricks".. That isn't true... > > It is more a matter of pilot skill than anything else. Some kites do >certain moves easier than others. Absolutley... For argument sake, the Stranger has a tendency to flip around really well, but I would never think of it as a presicion kite. Sure you can probably do it... But there are kites that do it better... > >: Deeper pocketed sails have a tendency to want to hold wind and fly >: straight... This is much the reason why they have always been sorta preferred >: on the East Coast as precision kites.. The tricks are do-able they just need >: to be "re-learned" for a deep sail. > > I don't think it has anything to do with the sail billow, my Free Spirit >is a fairly flat sailed kite, and it will stall on a dime. Did I miss something ? > I have two new kites >that I am working on for next year, both have very deep sails, both will also >stall on a dime. Why wouldn't they ? Nonetheless... It almost becomes a religious war.... In the last few years, I've almost become convinced that it's all silly... I think you can do well, and have a good time with anything.... You'll get out, what you put in... Jason = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 10 Aug 1995 13:30:02 -1000 From: skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) Message-Id: <40e4pq$3sq@news1.shell> Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data) Subject: Re: Black Hole and Tracers Jason Benedict (JBENEDICT@law.fordham.edu) wrote: : >: I surely agree that the XTC and Eclipse sort of "flatter" sail, are : >: much more conducive to high impact "sliding" tricks. These kites tend to : >: dump air with less effort. : > : > I disagree with this, it is more a matter of proper CG and oversteer, : >that allow kites to do this. I have found that flat kite are easier to : >pull out of the air, but I think that this is what may make them more : >radical. : First, What is "CG" ? Secondly, it has nothing to do with "oversteer". : Tracers as well as Air Masters have no discernable oversteer with factory : settings ( of course, you can tune that stability out as well.. ) and they : do these tricks as well as stop dead when given the right input. Dodd's : Masters routine from last year showed us that repeatedly. CG is Center of Gravity.... Oversteer was a bad word, what I meant was that tighter turning kites are easier to stall. I have yet to fly a delta kite that would not at least stop for a second. : >: Deeper pocketed sails have a tendency to want to hold wind and fly : >: straight... This is much the reason why they have always been sorta preferred : >: on the East Coast as precision kites.. The tricks are do-able they just need : >: to be "re-learned" for a deep sail. : > : > I don't think it has anything to do with the sail billow, my Free Spirit : >is a fairly flat sailed kite, and it will stall on a dime. : Did I miss something ? Yes... what I am saying is that Sail depth (or billow) has no effect on the ability of a kite to stall or hold a stall. I am currently leaning more toward deeper sails being better (send private email if you want to know why, it has to do with aerodynamics). : Nonetheless... It almost becomes a religious war.... In the last few : years, I've almost become convinced that it's all silly... I think you can : do well, and have a good time with anything.... You'll get out, what you : put in... I agree, if you practice with any kite you will become good at it. When you are learning it is sometimes easier to learn on a kite that does the move that you want to learn easy, then move on to your favorite kite. Rich ========================================================================== Richard & Kim Cornwell skyvis@shell.portal.com Sky Vision Kites http://www.portal.com/~skyvis 415-112 No. Mary Av. Suite 111, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 (408) 733-9313 The 8' Flash Point's are now here...check out the Flash Fire. ========================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Fri, 11 Aug 1995 05:49:35 -1000 From: sasaki@netopd.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <40fu6f$aqg@netope.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard University - OIT/NSD Subject: Re: Black Hole and Tracers In article <40e4pq$3sq@news1.shell>, skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) writes: |> Yes... what I am saying is that Sail depth (or billow) has no effect on the |>ability of a kite to stall or hold a stall. I am currently leaning more |>toward deeper sails being better (send private email if you want to know |>why, it has to do with aerodynamics). I've found kites that stall well usually fly with lower spreaders with bend in them. When you stall the kite, the spreaders go straight. This change in geometry effectively increases the angle of attack in the kite near the spine. The increased angle of attack decreases the lift. I agree that sail billow doesn't seem to matter with stalling ability. I do find that deeper sails seem to be more stable in stalls. I don't agree that Center of Gravity and it's relationship to Center of Pressure matters much with stalls. I've experimented extensively with top spreader weight and this hasn't changed stalling ability on my kites. It does have effects in turning, and diving and such, but stalls don't seem be affected. Having said this, I do believe that sail depth/billow does change the way a kite slides and such. Tip stabs and black holes seem to be easier to do with flatter kites. This might have more to do with the bridles usually found on these kites, but my intuition is that sail depth is more important here. Flat kites are also easier to axel (again, this is my experience, your mileage may vary). All of my kites do side slides well, and all are pretty flat. They also axel easily, more easily than the Ultra or Tracer, kites with lots of billow. |> I agree, if you practice with any kite you will become good at it. When |>you are learning it is sometimes easier to learn on a kite that does the move |>that you want to learn easy, then move on to your favorite kite. I think that the best thing to do is to have your favorite kite be a kite that allows you to easily do the moves. I think that my kites are good examples of this... ;-) Seriously though, I've taken out my beat up Spinoff (with whiskers) and with a bit of work I have managed to do tip stabs and axels and such. -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 90 Melrose Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Arlington, MA 02174 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-646-1925 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 12 Aug 1995 12:18:30 -1000 From: skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) Message-Id: <40j9bm$8dt@news1.shell> Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data) Subject: Re: Black Hole and Tracers Marty Sasaki (sasaki@netopd.harvard.edu) wrote: : In article <40e4pq$3sq@news1.shell>, skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) writes: : |> Yes... what I am saying is that Sail depth (or billow) has no effect on the : |>ability of a kite to stall or hold a stall. I am currently leaning more : |>toward deeper sails being better (send private email if you want to know : |>why, it has to do with aerodynamics). : I've found kites that stall well usually fly with lower spreaders with : bend in them. When you stall the kite, the spreaders go straight. This : change in geometry effectively increases the angle of attack in the : kite near the spine. The increased angle of attack decreases the lift. I would agree with this. My Free Spirit is the opposite, the spars are bowed when the kite is stalled or not flying, but straighen out during flight. So maybe to rule is that kites that change there goemetery when stopped stall better. : I agree that sail billow doesn't seem to matter with stalling : ability. I do find that deeper sails seem to be more stable in stalls. : I don't agree that Center of Gravity and it's relationship to Center : of Pressure matters much with stalls. I've experimented extensively : with top spreader weight and this hasn't changed stalling ability on : my kites. It does have effects in turning, and diving and such, but : stalls don't seem be affected. I never said anything about the relationship between CG and CP. Just that kites that have the CG farther down the spine seem to hold a stall better. With the CG down low it keeps the nose from flopping forward. : Having said this, I do believe that sail depth/billow does change the : way a kite slides and such. Tip stabs and black holes seem to be : easier to do with flatter kites. This might have more to do with the : bridles usually found on these kites, but my intuition is that sail : depth is more important here. I would go with bridles, flat sailed kites tend to fly better with short bridles (I don't know why). : Flat kites are also easier to axel (again, this is my experience, your : mileage may vary). Agreed. : All of my kites do side slides well, and all are pretty flat. They : also axel easily, more easily than the Ultra or Tracer, kites with : lots of billow. All of my kites will slide great, and the have varying billow. My Flash Point is probably the easies to axel. The Free Spirit tends to be the hardest, it has alot of oversteer, so you have to pop it just right. My new kite seems to be inbetween, but I am not done tuning it so this may change. : Seriously though, I've taken out my beat up Spinoff (with whiskers) : and with a bit of work I have managed to do tip stabs and axels and : such. I will have to ask my friend to let me play with his next time I am out flying. Rich ========================================================================== Richard & Kim Cornwell skyvis@shell.portal.com Sky Vision Kites http://www.portal.com/~skyvis 415-112 No. Mary Av. Suite 111, Sunnyvale, CA 94086 (408) 733-9313 The 8' Flash Point's are now here...check out the Flash Fire. ========================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =