Date:	Wed, 9 Aug 1995 04:20:42 -1000
From:	JBENEDICT@lex.lawnet.fordham.edu (Jason Benedict)
Message-Id: <950809102042.210069ce@law.fordham.edu>
Organization: Harvard University Office of Information Technology
Subject: Black Hole and Tracer


>Well, there are kites that just won't want to do it.  I didn't mean to
>convey that *my* list was an exclusive one--I was trying to indicate a
>"genre" or "type" of sport kite. Which is to say, fast, radical kites
>that like to be stalled; the Wasp was an example; the Cal-Kat is
>too...
>
>The Tracer, for instance, is not an example.  Etc.
>


	I surely agree that the XTC and Eclipse sort of "flatter" sail, are 
much more conducive to high impact "sliding" tricks.  These kites tend to 
dump air with less effort.  
	Although, for the uninformed, I just want to clear up the misconception
that deep sails," DON'T do these tricks"..  That isn't true...

After watching John Morrison and John Baressi beat the hell outta my
vented Air Master at the 94 Nationals,<grin> I saw that indeed, deep sails
(ie. Tracer, Ultra, Air Master, Air FX, Millenium) can do this stuff...

	Deeper pocketed sails have a tendency to want to hold wind and fly 
straight...  This is much the reason why they have always been sorta preferred
on the East Coast as precision kites..  The tricks are do-able they just need
to be "re-learned" for a deep sail.


Jason

	


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Date:	Wed, 9 Aug 1995 13:55:02 -1000
From:	skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell)
Message-Id: <40bhsm$e52@news1.shell>
Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data)
Subject: Re: Black Hole and Tracer

Jason Benedict (JBENEDICT@lex.lawnet.fordham.edu) wrote:

: >Well, there are kites that just won't want to do it.  I didn't mean to
: >convey that *my* list was an exclusive one--I was trying to indicate a
: >"genre" or "type" of sport kite. Which is to say, fast, radical kites
: >that like to be stalled; the Wasp was an example; the Cal-Kat is
: >too...
: >
: >The Tracer, for instance, is not an example.  Etc.
: >


: 	I surely agree that the XTC and Eclipse sort of "flatter" sail, are 
: much more conducive to high impact "sliding" tricks.  These kites tend to 
: dump air with less effort.  

   I disagree with this, it is more a matter of proper CG and oversteer,
that allow kites to do this. I have found that flat kite are easier to
pull out of the air, but I think that this is what may make them more
radical. 

: 	Although, for the uninformed, I just want to clear up the misconception
: that deep sails," DON'T do these tricks"..  That isn't true...

   It is more a matter of pilot skill than anything else. Some kites do
certain moves easier than others. 

: 	Deeper pocketed sails have a tendency to want to hold wind and fly 
: straight...  This is much the reason why they have always been sorta preferred
: on the East Coast as precision kites..  The tricks are do-able they just need
: to be "re-learned" for a deep sail.

   I don't think it has anything to do with the sail billow, my Free Spirit
is a fairly flat sailed kite, and it will stall on a dime. I have two new kites
that I am working on for next year, both have very deep sails, both will also
stall on a dime. I have noticed that deeper sails tend to be more stable
(I have some ideas why but will not go into it here).

					Rich

==========================================================================
Richard & Kim Cornwell                        skyvis@shell.portal.com
Sky Vision Kites                              http://www.portal.com/~skyvis
415-112 No. Mary Av. Suite 111, Sunnyvale, CA 94086     (408) 733-9313
The 8' Flash Point's are now here...check out the Flash Fire.
==========================================================================



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Date:	Fri, 11 Aug 1995 06:44:11 -1000
From:	steveth@mindnet.com (Steve R. Thomas)
Message-Id: <40g19l$e3o@news1.best.com>
Organization: NetMind Media
Subject: Re: Black Hole and Tracer

JBENEDICT@lex.lawnet.fordham.edu (Jason Benedict) wrote:


>	I surely agree that the XTC and Eclipse sort of "flatter" sail, are 
>much more conducive to high impact "sliding" tricks.  These kites tend to 
>dump air with less effort.  
>	Although, for the uninformed, I just want to clear up the misconception
>that deep sails," DON'T do these tricks"..  That isn't true...
>
>After watching John Morrison and John Baressi beat the hell outta my
>vented Air Master at the 94 Nationals,<grin> I saw that indeed, deep sails
>(ie. Tracer, Ultra, Air Master, Air FX, Millenium) can do this stuff...

We were talking about the Black Hole move.  This move requires a very
hefty tip stab.  Tip stabs are simply much more difficult with a kite
that is more "round".

I mean, I *can* fly a 10m Peel indoors ( :-) )... this doesn't mean
it's easy or the kite I'm flying is the best equipment for the
particular job.

>	Deeper pocketed sails have a tendency to want to hold wind and fly 
>straight...  This is much the reason why they have always been sorta preferred
>on the East Coast as precision kites..  The tricks are do-able they just need
>to be "re-learned" for a deep sail.

"Deeper" is not the issue here.  It's the aspect ratio, and the angle
of the tips.  The BH requires the wing tip to be "stuck" into the
ground, observe:

  Low aspect wing stab (harder):
     _---
    (
     -___
   --------ground---


  Higher aspect wing stab (easier):
     /
    /
   <
    \
     \
   --------ground---

I once got a chance to really get a feel for this _problem_ flying an
Air Master, actually.  I was playing "kite golf" one day in which the
object is to land the kite (any part) into many different circles
drawn out on the grass as fast as you can.  The fastest way to do this
is to do quick tip stabs into a circle and then take off to the next
circle...  Suffice it to say that I, and other [much better flyers]
(Miguel, John M., etc.) had real problems using this technique.

I think the AM is one of the *best* examples of this genre of sport
kite, too (it's very smooth, it flew beautifully, etc.), and even it
didn't like to do this kind of move that much.


____________
Steve Thomas
steveth@mindnet.com



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