Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 14:42:24 -1000 From: mauricio@tezcat.com (Mauricio Araujo) Message-Id: Organization: Tezcat.COM, Chicago Subject: BFK & Shanti I received the BFK catalog the other day. I was happy to see the Air F/X by Aerie Kites (page 6 first column first row). It think that this is one of the most beautiful kites that I seen in a long time. Then to my surprise I flip to the back cover and see the Allegro by Shanti. Those graphics are surprising similar. Now I ask my self why would a jumbo huge kite company want to copy the graphics of a small kite manufacture. Could they want to cause market confusion? No, that could lead to unfair trade practices. The jumbo kite company would not want to steal sales (and drive one out of business). This is too evil a thought, even for me. Yeah, right. Comments. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:45:24 -1000 From: crowell@teleport.com (Carl Crowell) Message-Id: Organization: Kites By Carl Crowell Subject: Re: BFK & Shanti >I received the BFK catalog the other day. I was happy to see the Air F/X >by Aerie Kites (page 6 first column first row). It think that this is one >of the most beautiful kites that I seen in a long time. Then to my >surprise I flip to the back cover and see the Allegro by Shanti. Those >graphics are surprising similar. Now I ask my self why would a jumbo huge >kite company want to copy the graphics of a small kite manufacture. Could >they want to cause market confusion? No, that could lead to unfair trade >practices. The jumbo kite company would not want to steal sales (and drive >one out of business). This is too evil a thought, even for me. Yeah, >right. >Comments. Yeah, well there are people out there that say anyone that makes a red white and blue kite is copying them, cuz they made one first..(yeah right!) The fact that you yourself say the kites are 'similar' is the solution to your quandry. they are not the same. to most stunt kites look the same. ___________________________________________________ email: crowell@kite.com FTP: ftp.teleport.com/pub/users/crowell WWW: http://www.teleport.com/~crowell Kites By Carl Crowell - O.S.F.M. World Headquarters = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 05:02:51 -1000 From: djskites@aol.com (Djskites) Message-Id: <3ks2ir$67o@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: BFK & Shanti Mauricio, Unfortunately, people copy other people's good ideas in this business all the time! The buyers of these kites are sending a direct message to those who do this that it is OK. Until the buyers are educated enough to know who started and desinged what first so they don't buy a copy of someone elses hard work and idea, this problem is just going to snowball, in fact it already is out of control and rolling down the hill very quickly. I could name 2 or 3 kites that are now excepted widely that are direct copies of someone elses hard work, those in the know, know which ones those are. On the other hand, good ideas do come from improvments of other designes. The Aerial for instance is probably a take off in some way (but not a copy because of the vast differences like 4 standoffs, wing battons, no cross bridel etc.) of the now famous Tracer by Mike Simmons. I doubt that this kite would have ever come about if were not for the Tracer. In fact, (now it gets hairy) alot of kites are take offs of the tracer these days, just look in the catalogs or line up your friends kites on the field and look at that similarities. It is amazing how close some of them come. Remember that the Tracer was first in low aspect deep sail, cross bridel, deep sail, deep wall tuneling ( short leading edge camber) and wide nose clip. How many kites do we see now days that have those features. But is that a bad thing? Alot of great flying kites these days have a few of those features and they don't fly like a Tracer. That's good! I would hate to see only one type of kite in the sky. I may have gone off in a bit of a tangent, but what I am trying to say is that we the buyers need to be better educated and informed and we should always try to support the "original" when it comes to direct copies. I feel that the main problem is that there are so many kites available that we become confused and the only issue we look at is how cheap we can buy it for. Remember to support your Pro shop or pro-catalog. That is the guy or women who really knows what is going on and can help you sift through the multitudes of kites, and as the years go buy, it is only going to get more confusing. Dodd Gross = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 17:41:38 -1000 From: windwiz@rain.org (Dan Rubesh) Message-Id: <3kqqli$la1@coyote.rain.org> Organization: the RAIN Network Subject: Re: BFK & Shanti In article , Mauricio Araujo wrote: [deletia] >Now I ask my self why would a jumbo huge kite company want to copy the >graphics of a small kite manufacture. Could they want to cause market >confusion? What's not apparent from the pictures in BFK's _great_ catalog, is that there is a tremendous difference in the two kites apart from the sorta similar graphics.. The Allegro is a new design by Eric Wolff of Chicago Fire Kite Co., and the AirFX is by Ken McNeil of Arie Kiteworks.. I don't _believe_ that there was any intentional graphics copying going on there.. The AirFX has a good sized amount of camber built into the sail, while the Allegro is relatively flatter.. They are both excellent fliers in their own rights!! Ob. Disclaimer: I am a stunt kite dealer and carry some of the above mentioned product(s). As such, my opinions may tend to be somewhat subjective. -- Dan Rubesh GO Wind Wizard windwiz@coyote.rain.org FLY A P.O. Box 5747 danr@crash.cts.com SPORT KITE Ventura, CA 93005 (805) 659-5769 (voice & fax) T.B.N.K. Member: AKA & KTA = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 05:45:20 -1000 From: jburka@Glue.umd.edu (Jeffrey C. Burka) Message-Id: <3ks52g$145@geog21.umd.edu> Organization: Project Glue, University of Maryland, College Park Subject: Re: BFK & Shanti In article , Mauricio Araujo wrote: >I received the BFK catalog the other day. I was happy to see the Air F/X >by Aerie Kites (page 6 first column first row). It think that this is one >of the most beautiful kites that I seen in a long time. Then to my >surprise I flip to the back cover and see the Allegro by Shanti. Those >graphics are surprising similar. *Lots* of kites look surprisingly similar. Hell, my non-kiter friends look at my various gear and think that my kites all look alike (never mind the graphic -- they think a dart with one aspect ratio looks basically just like a dart of another aspect ratio. Me, I look at 'em and see completely different sails). As has already been pointed out, the Allegro was designed by a *very* old and reputable name in kite design. Dodd's all concerned about everybody knocking off the Tracer, well, UL kiting wouldn't be where it is if Tim Benson hadn't basically taken the FireDart from Action (designed by Chicago Fire, who did the Allegro) and made it into a good kite. Me, when I saw the Allegro, my first thought was that it looked a lot like the old Hawk from Skyward. It never occurred to me that it looked like the Air F/X. We all see different things. >Now I ask my self why would a jumbo huge >kite company want to copy the graphics of a small kite manufacture. Could >they want to cause market confusion? Oh *please*! What about all the companies whose kites share the same name? I would be surprised if (a) Shanti had anything to do with the graphic design of the Allegro and (b) Eric had any intention of ripping off the Air F/X when he designed the Allegro. >No, that could lead to unfair trade >practices. The jumbo kite company would not want to steal sales (and drive >one out of business). This is too evil a thought, even for me. Yeah, >right. >Comments. Sounds like big-time paranoia to me. Jeff -- |Jeffrey C. Burka | Pithy, insightful quote to be inserted | | | when one occurs to me. *If* one occurs | |jeffy@glue.umd.edu | to me. | = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 09:12:30 -1000 From: sasaki@netopd.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) Message-Id: <3ksh6v$hcu@netope.harvard.edu> Organization: Harvard OIT Network Services Subject: Re: BFK & Shanti I find it distressing that so many kites look sort of like my kites, especially the California Katana. I designed it as a derivative from the Katana (simpler sail pattern so that the price would be lower) and wish that everyone else would stop copying my graphics! Seriously, a superficial look at dart-shaped stunt kites will show that they all look the same. They have the same general shape, use the same general bridle configuration, etc. They fly differently, and the difference is due to the details. I don't think that the Allegro is the same kite as the Air F/X. If they fly similarly, it is because the designers were trying to create kites that flew similarly. The similar flight characteristics are due to the fact that flyers want a kite that is capable of the same sorts of things. If your kite can't axel, or turtle, or what-have-you, then it won't sell in today's market. Having said this, I will leak that the next kite from Sasaki Kite Fabrications, the Katana-III, will be a hybrid between the California Katana and the Katana-II, with the original Katana graphics. These graphics really separated the Katana from other darts... -- Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 08:58:09 -1000 From: skyvis@shell.portal.com (Richard P Cornwell) Message-Id: <3ksgc1$6na@news1.shell> Organization: Portal Communications Company -- 408/973-9111 (voice) 408/973-8091 (data) Subject: Re: BFK & Shanti Mauricio Araujo (mauricio@tezcat.com) wrote: : I received the BFK catalog the other day. I was happy to see the Air F/X : by Aerie Kites (page 6 first column first row). It think that this is one : of the most beautiful kites that I seen in a long time. Then to my : surprise I flip to the back cover and see the Allegro by Shanti. Those : graphics are surprising similar. Now I ask my self why would a jumbo huge : kite company want to copy the graphics of a small kite manufacture. Could : they want to cause market confusion? No, that could lead to unfair trade : practices. The jumbo kite company would not want to steal sales (and drive : one out of business). This is too evil a thought, even for me. Yeah, : right. : Comments. According to the Shanti catalog the Allegro is made by Chicago Fire. From the ITW catalog and the Shanti catalog I will admit that the pictures of the kites look similar, same colors and everything. But the AirFX is lighter and looks like it has more panels. The AirFX has a curved trailing edge where the Allegro does not. The Allegro looks like it has battens and small winglets, the AirFX does not appear to. I think it is just a case of the kites look similar, afterall there is only so many ways to design a delta stunt kite. Rich ========================================================================== Richard & Kim Cornwell skyvis@shell.portal.com Sky Vision Kites (408) 733-9313 415-112 No. Mary Av. Suite 111 http://www.portal.com/~skyvis Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Check out our new stuff and Spring Sale. ========================================================================== = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 22:39:41 -1000 From: crowell@teleport.com (Carl Crowell) Message-Id: Organization: Kites By Carl Crowell Subject: Re: BFK & Shanti My next stunt kite will be the Katana 5000, at the rate that you other guys are building katanas, it will take years for yall to catch up. And by the time you do, I will probibly build the katana 1000000000. So there. Lets all just build old spin-offs, put nice carbon frames in them with standoffs, and give them cool names. I Like: Lightspeed Warp Duo Warp Q (fer quad...) Cristolo Nimrod XKL Now I understand the whole dual line racket... carl ___________________________________________________ email: crowell@kite.com FTP: ftp.teleport.com/pub/users/crowell WWW: http://www.teleport.com/~crowell Kites By Carl Crowell - O.S.F.M. World Headquarters = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 25 Mar 1995 04:55:07 -1000 From: mauricio@tezcat.com (Mauricio Araujo) Message-Id: Organization: Tezcat.COM, Chicago Subject: Re: BFK & Shanti Ok, a couple of things first. I will make this extremely clear. I, in no way, implied nor should there be an inference that Eric Wolff was "ripping off" Ken's design. I know both of these people. I do not think that that was the case. Second, my question did not involve the design. It was only about the graphics. I have been known to confuse kites that look similar. Market confusion is not about the sophisticated buyer. It is about the average buyer. Similar looking products lead to confusion. To my mind, which is not very big, the Air F/X is one of the first kites to use a predominately white main sail (yeah, I know back in the old days there was this kite called...). What does Shanti own: Line, Fabric (yeah, I know they do not make it. They are the ones who import it. If anyone else wanted to they could. yeah, yeah) Kite Company and a Magazine to tie it all together. Did I miss anything? Yeah, yeah I am just being paranoid. But, what is wrong with paranoia. What does the rumor mill say about the American Kite / DraMa split? The esteemed Mr. Crowell wrote: > The fact that you yourself say the kites are 'similar' is the solution to your > quandry. they are not the same. to most stunt kites look the same. Gee, when it was your kite that was being copied there was a lot of huffing and puffing. Where is it now? = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =