Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 19:49:31 -1000 From: Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) Message-Id: <9410242049.AA04180@stuntkite.EBay.Sun.COM> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: AKA National ranking system (was Re: Scoring Kite Competitions) -] Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 21:58:23 GMT -] From: sasaki@das.harvard.edu (Marty Sasaki) -] Subject: Re: Scoring Kite Competitions -] -] At the board meeting that was held on Sunday morning two resolutions -] were put into effect that potentially have an effect on stunt kite folks: -] -] - To institute a national ranking system on a trial -] basis. This ranking system would potentially qualify -] additional teams and individuals for the AKA convention. -] -] Darrin Skinner is working on a system similar to the tennis -] computer ranking system to rank flyers nationally. Contact -] Darrin for more information on this. -] -] - The results of the AKA Grand Nationals will be used to -] establish a season end national ranking for the AKA. If you -] win in Master's Individual Ballet at the Grand Nationals, -] then you can claim to be the best ballet flyer on the AKA -] "circuit". -] -] Please note that the first bit is a *trial* system. It might be used -] this year, and it might not. -] -] The second bit will go into effect for the 1995 AKA Convention. -] -] -- -] Marty Sasaki Harvard University Sasaki Kite Fabrications -] sasaki@noc.harvard.edu Network Services Division 26 Green Street -] 617-496-4320 10 Ware Street Jamaica Plain, MA 02130 -] Cambridge, MA 02138-4002 phone/fax: 617-522-8546 I was planning on bring this issue to discussion on rec.kites in a few weeks, but since Marty has already opened the topic -- now is as good a time as any. The AKA wants to establish a national ranking system, because: (1)The AKA Convention competition is supposed to be a best-of-the-best competition. The best we've been able to do along these lines is a best-of-the-conferences competition. Now, this probably represents 900f the best-of-the-best, but if we can identify individuals that consistently win on a national basis then we can invite them to compete as well. This gets us closer to a best-of-the-best competition. (2)The International Olympic committee has a specific list of requirements for a sport being considered in the olympic games. One of these requirements is that there be a national ranking system administered by a non-profit organization. (3)It would be nice to have a system that could determine that (for example) Dodd Gross is a better flier than (oh, lets say) David Gomberg eventhough these two have never flown at the same event. As Marty mentioned, the AKA wants to have a national scoring system in place this year on a trial basis. They have directed the Festival and Competitions Committee (i.e. it's chairman (i.e. me)) to do this. So far, all of the above is just information to you all... here's where I put YOU to work. I want your opinions (please keep to 500 words or less :-) )... There are two basic approaches/directions to take when doing a national scoring system. (1) (benefit) A very accurate system. (drawback) Hard or impossible for individual to determine their own ranking. (examples) US Tennis Association, US Chess Federation, Golf handicaps (2) (benefit) Easy for individual to determine their own score. (drawback) Even though individual can determine their own score, the score alone does not tell them where they rank. (drawback) Not as accurate a system as #1 above. (examples) Current AKA conference system, American Kite (Mag.) circuit. As many of you know, I've been working on a US Kite Ranking system that is almost a direct copy of the US Tennis Assocations ranking system. The USTA system is considered (in international sports) to be one of the most accurate systems in existance. When the difference between being ranked 4th and being ranked 5th equals millions of dollars in endorsments, the ranking system had better be accurate! The major advantage to this system is that it makes determinations about fliers abilities based on head-to-head competition *only*. For example, if flier A beat flier B, and flier B beat flier C. USKR determines that flier A is better than flier C, even though the two fliers have never flown against each other. This system (USKR) works fine for me. It has the advantages and dis-advantages as described in #1 above. If the AKA had no way of publishing the results quickly, I'd say the system MUST be self determining (i.e. each individual should be able to determine their own score and ranking). However, the AKA Automated Information System (IMHO) takes care of this problem. The results can/will be updated on the system as soon as new event information is recieved. My real question for rec.kites is, what would you prefer? A system where you can figure your own score; a system where you can't figure your own score; a less accurate system; a more accurate system; etc...? A basic assumption I make in all the above is that a less complicated system is also less accurate (and vice versa). I have formed this opinion after examining over 20 different scoring systems (some in use, some not). If anyone can show me a accurate system (for national scoring, where most competitors *never* compete head-to-head) that is not complex, I'll be the first to endorse it. Thanks, Darrin P.S. I have a handfull of alternative ideas for the AKA's national ranking system. I'll post these ideas later this week (hopefully). = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 20:02:29 -1000 From: swright@ix.netcom.com (Walter Wright III) Message-Id: <38i71l$s1t@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: AKA National ranking system (was Re: Scoring Kite Competitions) In <9410242049.AA04180@stuntkite.EBay.Sun.COM> Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) writes: > > (Marty's stuff deleted) >I was planning on bring this issue to discussion on rec.kites in a few weeks, >but since Marty has already opened the topic -- now is as good a time as any. > > Reasons for a national system > >My real question for rec.kites is, what would you prefer? A system where you can >figure your own score; a system where you can't figure your own score; a less >accurate system; a more accurate system; etc...? I would like to place my vote in the accuracy camp provided: o scores/rankings are easily available (i.e., 1-800-aka-rank) o points/scores are updated quickly. I was really disappointed when I attended (as a spectator) my first stunt kite competition in Wildwood this past May (East Coast SKC). The lack of a scoring system that is immediate to the spectators and contestants is really shocking. If the AKA wants it's sport kite competition to grow, it needs to cater more to the spectators! Immediate feedback (a la ice skating, diving, etc.) is needed. I am encouraged that the AKA is looking toward international ranking with an eye toward the Olympics. I would like to hear more about your 'job' here, as well as see how I might be able to contribute. Skip Wright = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 05:53:18 -1000 From: Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <38j9le$b6e@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: AKA National ranking system (was Re: Scoring Kite Competitions) In <9410242049.AA04180@stuntkite.EBay.Sun.COM> Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) writes: >If anyone can show me >a accurate system (for national scoring, where most competitors *never* compete >head-to-head) that is not complex, I'll be the first to endorse it. >Darrin > >P.S. I have a handfull of alternative ideas for the AKA's national ranking system. > I'll post these ideas later this week (hopefully). I already have. Where the hell have you been! Mr.Nasty = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 22:20:28 -1000 From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) Message-Id: Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation Subject: Re: AKA National ranking system (was Re: Scoring Kite Competitions) Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) writes: >Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) writes: >>If anyone can show me >>a accurate system (for national scoring, where most competitors *never* >>compete head-to-head) that is not complex, I'll be the first to endorse it. >I already have. Where the hell have you been! Frank, I can't speak for Darrin, but I've read everything that you've posted and I'm sorry, but I missed it. This is your chance to change the world. Sit down and write a clear description of how your system would work. Include detail of the scoring, the ranking, the dissemination of results. Include worked examples. List the advantages and the disadvantages (nothing's perfect for everyone...). Avoid emotion, personal or political attacks, make the document as professional as you can. Get someone else to read it first so see if they find it clear and can work out the detail (I'll try that if you like, but I'm sure we can find a stunt competitor or judge to help). Go for it! Andrew -- You can FTP the kite FAQ's from ftp.hawaii.edu (directory /pub/rec/kites/faq) /-\ () >< () |\/| () >< () /-\ For sale: 10' Flexis with std & UF Spars, 10m Peel (I want the new reefers) What should I know? I can't even axel yet :-( = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 19:20:16 -1000 From: Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) Message-Id: <9411022120.AA02593@stuntkite.EBay.Sun.COM> Organization: Division of Applied Sciences, Harvard University Subject: Re: AKA National ranking system (was Re: Scoring Kite Competitions) -] From kites-request@das.harvard.edu Sun Oct 30 15:10:15 1994 -] To: kites@das.harvard.edu -] Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 08:20:28 GMT -] From: andrew@tug.com (Andrew Beattie) -] Organization: /usr/lib/news/organisation -] Sender: kites-request@das.harvard.edu -] Subject: Re: AKA National ranking system (was Re: Scoring Kite Competitions) -] Content-Length: 1613 -] -] Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) writes: -] >Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) writes: -] >>If anyone can show me -] >>a accurate system (for national scoring, where most competitors *never* -] >>compete head-to-head) that is not complex, I'll be the first to endorse it. -] >I already have. Where the hell have you been! -] -] Frank, I can't speak for Darrin, but I've read everything that you've posted -] and I'm sorry, but I missed it. Actually I did print it when Frank posted it. I remember that I did not understand everything it was doing. I'll take another look at it and see if I can figure it out. If I can't, I'll ask. -] -] This is your chance to change the world. Sit down and write a clear -] description of how your system would work. Include detail of the scoring, -] the ranking, the dissemination of results. Include worked examples. List -] the advantages and the disadvantages (nothing's perfect for everyone...). -] Avoid emotion, personal or political attacks, make the document as -] professional as you can. Get someone else to read it first so see if they -] find it clear and can work out the detail (I'll try that if you like, but I'm -] sure we can find a stunt competitor or judge to help). Go for it! -] -] Andrew Darrin = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 07:43:24 -1000 From: Mr.Nasty@ix.netcom.com (Frank Kenisky) Message-Id: <39odbs$ie6@ixnews1.ix.netcom.com> Organization: Netcom Subject: Re: AKA National ranking system (was Re: Scoring Kite Competitions) In <9411022120.AA02593@stuntkite.EBay.Sun.COM> Darrin.Skinner@ebay.sun.com (Darrin Skinner) writes: >-] Frank, I can't speak for Darrin, but I've read everything that you've posted >-] and I'm sorry, but I missed it. > >Actually I did print it when Frank posted it. I remember that I did >not understand everything it was doing. I'll take another look at it >and see if I can figure it out. If I can't, I'll ask. Well asking is a good place to start. Mr.Nasty = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =