Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 16:56:21 -1000 From: francis@red.seas.upenn.edu (Francis J Gramkowski Iii) Message-Id: <3cge4l$9ej@netnews.upenn.edu> Organization: University of Pennsylvania Subject: 2 vs 4 What do like buggy with 2 or 4 line kites? I used both and have swithed back and forth as to which a prefer. When I started buggying (before quadlines) I used Flexifoils, a 12 foot and a few tens and rode a huge buggy. My dad traded Peter Lynn a couple of boxes of K-75's (to use in excalibers) for his first buggy at a kite festival in Thailand and brought it home to the states. This buggy is huge, its wheel span is about 10 feet and its length is about the same. It has a large molded fiberglass seat which has enough room for 2 people, the pilot in front with a passenger sitting behind. I still enjoy riding it but going up wind takes some time, its turning radius is about 25 feet. I started cruising the beach in this huge buggy powered by my flexi's. I was having a ball, even though I could only realy get back to where I started on reaching days or when the tide went out really far. Then a year or two later I got a new Peter Lynn buggy. At first I was skeptical. This new buggy looked nothing like my big red cruzer, it had steel tubes and a webbed seat and it was tiny. For some reason I thought that there was no way that this dinkly little thing could compare to my trusty big red machine. So I tried the new buggy and was amazed. The first time I tried the wind was off shore at about 15 and I was getting some good speed using two tens. What realy impressed me was how much better it turned. Only got to try the new buggy the one time and then went on a trip to France, Berc sur mer. It was there that I was introduced to the Quadrafoil. Lee Sedgwick & Sue Taft were also on this trip and had just switched to quads for their icekiting adventures. Lee set me up with his 50 and I was off. My flexifoils did not leave their bag for the rest of the trip. The combination of the new buggy and the ease of the quad made for a great time. I think at the time I found the quad a lot easier to handle and had become tired of relanching my kites. The previous summer I had spent alot of time with my kites on the ground and really liked the idea of not having to get to relaunch my kite. I flew exclusive quads for the 2 years i think. Then I got my first peel. My dad got it from Peter at the AKA convetion in Jacksonville, it came with out a bag or instructions and all tangled up. It sat around for awhile before I flew it, I had never seen one before and all of those briddle lines looked scary. I flew it a few times and felt comfortable enough with it to buggy with it. It was about 2 years ago when I finaly got it out and I was again surprised by a new toy. I got in my buggy and started to turn up wind, the kite got to the edge and went out a little further so I just turned up wind more. I was amazed at how much this kite pulled even at the edge. I flew both peels and quads for a while. I only had a 5 meter so when the wind got light I needed to get a big bag out, also it was easier to buggy with other people using a quad. I took me a while to get a bigger peel, one of the old 640 reefing ones, they were hard to come by in the states then. I slowly started flying peels more and quads less. It took me a while to get the hang of the peel, I was the only one I knew who was flying one. Then last may Peter Lynn loaned me a set of Ultra light peels. After spending a week flying with Peter I learned alot about flying peels and pretty much stopped flying quads. The 10 meter is a truely amazing kite if you can tell which way the wind is blowing then there is enough to buggy with this kite. With the peels I found I could go up wind alot easier, buggy in lighter winds and go faster. At first peels are harder to handle than a quad but once you get the hang of flying one you I think you have more control over the kites power than with a quad. I think you can fly a bigger peel than quad for a given amount wind. Recently I started flying one of the new reefers, I think I like it beter than peels. Well thats my experience with 2 and 4 line kites. Right now I prefer 2 line kites but I have a quaded reefer that in bag that I still have to fly. JTavo (jtavo@aol.com) wrote: : 1. Setting up and launching Quads is much easier than a peel or : flexi stack. I have seen the struggling. Granted quads are easier to launch but I think most of the people you see struggling with there peels and stacks are inexperienced. I used to spend a lot of time untangleing lines and such but after flying peels for a few months I can get in the air in about the same amount of time as I can with a quad. With peels you just have to be more carefull when you back up your gear and think a little more when you set them up. : 2. When a quad goes down, 9 times out of 10 you just "fluff and fly". : When the peel or Flexi's go down, you walk at least 300 feet. I have been flying my peels on 75 foot lines lately. Walking 150 feet to relaunch if is no big deal. Peels can be relaunched, while not nearly as easy as a quad, if its windy I can usually relaunch my peel unless a wing tip gets caught in the bridle lines. : 3. Quads generally fly on less than 100 feet. : peels or Flexi's fly on incredibly long lines, classifing you as "AIR : HOGS". I currently fly on 75 and 120 foot lines except for really light winds. I even prefer the 120 foot for the kite boat and surfer.. : 4. Quads are less expensive! Who has 1200 dollors to spend on peels, : 10 stacks of flexi's or a modulus. : 5. Yes, quads are EASIER to fly! I buggy for FUN! who wants to struggle? : Quads require little wrist movements to fly, not gorilla arms. Struggle? with a back harness and a set of quick release handles you only have to struggle if you take the load of the back strap to try and go faster. I much prefer the arm movements required to fly a two line kite than a quad. With full arm movement used to control the dual line kites I feel much more connected to the kite, the kite almost feels like an extension of my body. : 6. While you are sleeving those long lines and fiddling with your : unruly kites, I will have been buggying for at least a half an hour!!! : B-) : 7. More performance?? I think the new line of Skytigers might just : satisfy : that request. WE will see. Fritz = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 05:20:26 -1000 From: jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) Message-Id: <3chpnq$8mm@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: 2 vs 4 In article <3cge4l$9ej@netnews.upenn.edu>, francis@red.seas.upenn.edu (Francis J Gramkowski Iii) writes: <> Good responces fritz! This is the type of answers I was hoping for! BUT, you failed to put a disclaimer about your bias towards peels. Also, why is Peter about to bring a Quad peel to market?? Lets keep this going! This is what this newsgroup is about! Later, John. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 06:30:08 -1000 From: skywardmfg@aol.com (SkywardMfg) Message-Id: <3chtqg$9ii@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Subject: Re: 2 vs 4 In article <3chpnq$8mm@newsbf01.news.aol.com>, jtavo@aol.com (JTavo) writes: GOOD JOB GUYS!!!!!!!! I have not been on line very long (about 2 weeks) but overall i have been very disapointed. Between the so called non advertisements, and assorted bitching and groaning there is not much left. I agree With you! Fritz is writing the stuff i want to read. Keep going guys! MIKE SIMMONS = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 18:41:45 -1000 From: pbc@ufl.edu (Philip Chase) Message-Id: Organization: CIRCA, University of Florida Subject: Re: 2 vs 4 In article <3cge4l$9ej@netnews.upenn.edu> francis@red.seas.upenn.edu (Francis J Gramkowski Iii) writes: >From: francis@red.seas.upenn.edu (Francis J Gramkowski Iii) >Subject: 2 vs 4 >Date: 12 Dec 1994 02:56:21 GMT >What do like buggy with 2 or 4 line kites? > JTavo (jtavo@aol.com) wrote: >: 1. Setting up and launching Quads is much easier than a peel or >: flexi stack. I have seen the struggling. >Granted quads are easier to launch but I think most of the people you see >struggling with there peels and stacks are inexperienced. > I used to spend a lot of time untangleing lines and such but >after flying peels for a few months I can get in the air in about the >same amount of time as I can with a quad. With peels you just have to be >more carefull when you back up your gear and think a little more when you >set them up. >: 2. When a quad goes down, 9 times out of 10 you just "fluff and fly". >: When the peel or Flexi's go down, you walk at least 300 feet. >I have been flying my peels on 75 foot lines lately. Walking 150 feet to >relaunch if is no big deal. Peels can be relaunched, while not >nearly as >easy as a quad, if its windy I can usually relaunch my peel unless a wing >tip gets caught in the bridle lines. I like to fly my 10m2 on 75 foot lines. Admittedly, it is difficult to do a down turn when you wing span is a thrid of your line length, but it *does* work and it works well. I find it very difficult to manage the 10m2 on long lines when I am tacking up a narrow beach. The kite is so slow to move from one edge to the other, that I am across the beach before the kite reaches the edge. Use short lines and the peel is acroos the window to the upwind edge and giving you that the power on the far edge that nothing else provides. >: 5. Yes, quads are EASIER to fly! I buggy for FUN! who wants to struggle? >: Quads require little wrist movements to fly, not gorilla arms. >Struggle? with a back harness and a set of quick release handles you only >have to struggle if you take the load of the back strap to try and go faster. >I much prefer the arm movements required to fly a two line kite than a >quad. With full arm movement used to control the dual line kites I feel >much more connected to the kite, the kite almost feels like an extension >of my body. "Fun" is a highly personal thing. I for one cannot chose between the edge performance of the peel and the freedom from screw ups that quads provide. When I'm flying quad I get a kick out of watching the peel flyers faces when I brush them or snag there lines. They are so nervous I'm going to foul them and force them to relaunch. But I can't help but be jealous when they can get that critical angle upwind that I can't with a quad. YOu may not need that performance to play with, but sometimes it's required to play the game. I for one am not as interested in racing as much as games and sparring, but the skills it takes to get speed and ground made good upwind make the games more fun. I'm looking forward to the quadline peels. I want performance and relaunchability so I can play hard and take chances in the sky without the annoyance of a slow relaunch. Philip Philip Chase Check out the Power Kiting Web Page pbc@ufl.edu http://grove.circa.ufl.edu/~pbc/powerkite.html 904-378-6893 Have any good power kiting info? I would FAX: 904-392-3760 like to put it on the power kiting page. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =